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Posted By: pauluk The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/01/07 01:51 PM
It would be interesting to find out just what is inside this gizmo (other than snakeoil, that is!):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Household-Po wer-Saver-Save-Energy-Money-up-to30-15KW.....
Posted By: iwire Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/01/07 02:02 PM
Paul, look at the box.

It plainly says it a "Electricity - saving box"

What else do I need to know before I send them my money? [Linked Image]
Posted By: iwire Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/01/07 02:09 PM
Sentences like this one instill a lot of confidence. [Linked Image]

Quote
Please know use more can not help you save more, normally we do not suggest customer buy more for a single phase household. if you need more please contact me for more detail information
Posted By: Kenbo Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/01/07 02:27 PM
Hope you all had a good new year [Linked Image]

My initial thought on this is that it is some type capacitor used to balance phases. Though how this theory works on single phase supplies is unknown to me.

My understanding is that industrial users are billed by the imbalance of phase differences caused by machines running. So some users have banks of capacitors to counter inductive loads and vice verca.
Here's the confusing description on how it works:
"Power Save Device improves the power factor by reducing the amount of electricity that is used from our utility company. This is accomplished by supplying electricity locally at the load by the use of specially designed capacitor. These advanced capacitor store the additional electricity needed for stabilizing electric current within an inductive load."

Reducing the amount of electricity from the utility company by storing it in a capacitor locally..

Now correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the capacitor charge from the electricity FROM the utility company in the first place? It's not pulling it out of thin air.
Posted By: Ron Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/01/07 04:00 PM
Power factor correction
Some literature at the site below http://www.stacoenergy.com/PFC.html
Posted By: jdevlin Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/01/07 04:02 PM
It sounds alot like a UPS with a special capacitor(battery).
Here is a description. It a poor translation. It will keep you appliances from getting fever.
I comes from China.
It even saves you interest.
"Promoting the power factor, can save the fee of adjusting the interest rate of the power supply, for the mobile electricity charges can also attain the significant effect that lower.
"
http://www.bizviet.net/tradeoffer_124164.html
http://www.tmnetmall.com.my/prodCat...696 &ProductType=4090&catgID=120

[This message has been edited by jdevlin (edited 01-01-2007).]
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/01/07 07:17 PM
These things are usually a power factor correction device based on the "NASA Circuit", or so it was called in the 70s. They demonstrate it with an unloaded motor and it really seems to work well. When you get a well designed motor up into it's design load range those savings slip away. When Consumer Reports tested these things on a modern refrigerator it actually made it worse.
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/01/07 07:43 PM
Aren't these similar to some device they used to market on TV that you could plug your 120V window A/C or refrigerator into and save money??? I can't find a link to that specific one, but I found a couple doozies [Linked Image]

I've yet to have anyone approach me about hooking one of these up...

Quote
Is the Power-Save 1200™ easy to (install)
We recommend installation by an electrician. The unit comes with complete installation instructions. It installs in about 20-30 minutes

$300!!!
http://www.power-save1200.com/

This one's $200!! [Linked Image] http://www.thexpowerenergysaver.com/?gclid=CIqyiub8v4kCFSSVYAodWW5TNQ

(edited for spelling)

[This message has been edited by Lostazhell (edited 01-01-2007).]
Posted By: BigB Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/02/07 12:16 AM
I can't believe you guys would actually doubt the claims when it plainly says:

"Awarded with the Excellent Green Environment-friendly Product of China" [Linked Image]
I don't need no stinkin box to save money on my 'lectric! All I gotta do is plug these here orange cords in my neighbor's house when he ain't lookin!

Seriously, I don't know how these things work, but even IF they did reduce power, it wouldn't be worth the price of the special box. Also, I don't trust this thing, I just hate plugging into cheap plastic boxes, unless it's a lamp on a timer... that's about it.

If you want to save money, the best thing to do is stop using electricity. Do your washing by hand, don't watch tv, don't listen to the radio.....
No thank you, I'd rather pay for my 'lectric and watch TV.

Of course, I bet the inventor of this thing doesn't even use it. He can pay his electric bill with the money he makes when foolish or uneducated people buy these little boxes. (uneducated meaning they are uneducated on the truth of products like these)
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/03/07 02:49 AM
This is the basic device http://ipp.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation64/door.htm
Posted By: WFO Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/03/07 04:14 AM
Quote

Power Save Device improves the power factor by reducing the amount of electricity that is used from our utility company. This is accomplished by supplying electricity locally at the load by the use of specially designed capacitor. These advanced capacitor store the additional electricity needed for stabilizing electric current within an inductive load.

Therefore, the amount of electricity used through power factor optimization will be greatly reduced and resulting in power savings.

It's a capacitor.
It MAY help correct your power factor, but it will not lower your bill unless you are billed with a KVAH meter. Since 99.9999% of you have a WATT hour meter (which couldn't care less about the P.F.), it won't affect your bill other than the miniscule amount of line loss in your wiring.
It will only make you money if you have stock in the company selling it.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/03/07 06:23 AM
If this is the NASA circuit it will save you money, assuming you have a lot of motors idling without a load. That is not likely in a home but it could make a difference in some industrial applications. That was what this was designed to help.
Posted By: walrus Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/03/07 11:30 AM
Every house I've ever been in has a power saving device, its called a switch, use it and save [Linked Image]
Posted By: WFO Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/03/07 12:33 PM
Quote

very house I've ever been in has a power saving device, its called a switch, use it and save

This is the best advice (and the least expensive) you'll ever hear.
Posted By: jraef Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 07:17 AM
These things are not even as sophisticated as a Nola device (not that they work in resi applications either). These cheap Chinese boxes are flooding the market with wild claims, but are nothing more than a capacitor. They do NOTHING to reduce the power bill. They appear to reduce current, but only because they improve power factor. In China, maybe they charge all users for poor power factor, but in the US and most other Western industrialized nations, they do not. So even though the amps will go down, the kW, and thereby the kWh as read by the revenue meter, will NOT change. Most homeowners have no clue however, so they buy it and think that it works. By the time they figure out that it doesn't, the snake-oil seller they bought it from is long gone, and the manufacturer is untouchable in China.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 07:48 AM
OK,
So it plugs into the wall.
How does that help my permanently connected Hot Water Cylinder and my permanently connected Range?.
The first being rated at 3kW and the latter rated at 12kW.
Having a thing like that plugged into a wall socket is going to do not a great deal for all of my loads.
I have to agree Paul, it sounds like the good (snake) oil to me!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 12:35 PM
I wonder... if you put the entire house on a dimmer, how much money could you save? Dropping from 120V to 100V would theoretically reduce instaneous power by about 30%- light bulbs would dim, TVs would dim, etc. Of course, heating elements putting out 30% less heat would have to run 30% longer and it would be a wash with that respect. Would a homeowner see much real-world savings from this? I'd imagine some, just from lower lighting costs, but those can be cut even more by using flourescent bulbs. I don't think a whole house dimmer would work out too well...

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 01-05-2007).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 12:49 PM
Steve,
Quote
I wonder... if you put the entire house on a dimmer, how much money could you save?
Would that be a large rheostat or a Triac/Diac based thing?.
One thing I do know is that motors do not like being under-voltaged.
Anyone with AirCon will tell you that any under-voltage will trip out an A/C unit just like that.
While the voltage may drop, the current rises in sympathy.
It is also harder to start an A/C unit with a lower voltage, without tripping breakers.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 12:57 PM
This is a hypothetically loss-less voltage reducer- maybe a voltage regulating transformer or a dual-conversion frequency converter capable of outputting whatever you want.

Not many motors in a home; heat pump and refrigerators would be all that would run regularly. Small appliances and tools and the such, eh.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 01:06 PM
OK Steve,
When I was doing my time at Night School we proved that you could run a 230VAC lamp on 400V, 2 phase.
Via what is known as a Variac Variable Transformer.
It was wound up to 460V and the bulb exploded.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 01:16 PM
OK so it might be Power factor correction.
I don't think so some how.
Power Factor Correction applies to Installations drawing more than 100A per Phase.
And have thier own Current Transformers.
As in having 5:100 CT's for the metering circuit.
How big is that plug?.
Posted By: mamills Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 02:26 PM
FANTASTIC!!! I'm ready to start saving up to 28,000 watts through one of my 15 amp electric receptacles [Linked Image]!!

Mike (mamills)

BTW, Happy new year to all!
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 04:59 PM
Power factor correction can be applied to any level of reactive power. It's common in small appliances as well as large industrial installations. PC power supplies, for instance- they almost all have power factor correction built into them these days, especially the better ones.
Posted By: jdevlin Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/05/07 07:19 PM
If I remember my college days correctly power factor correction makes you pay more. Your meter reads watts and if your power factor is too far one way the meter reads lower than your actual usage. That is why the POCO want you at a close to unity PF as possible. They have no way of measuring your PF in a home. In a industrial set they do measure and adjust your bill accordingly.
So if you want to pay less you want your power factor as far from unity as possible.
Posted By: WFO Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/06/07 03:47 AM
Quote

So if you want to pay less you want your power factor as far from unity as possible

Not so.
The meter on your house reads watts. Power factor correction consists of supplying capacitive reactance (leading vars)to compensate for the inductive reactance of motors (lagging vars). By doing this, the source no longer has to supply these vars and your Kva lowers, NOT YOUR WATTAGE. Your bill won't change.
If you are one of the few and rare individuals that is metered by a Kvah meter, it would help, but most people aren't.

In industrial applications, the farther you are from unity, the worse it is, since in these applications, you usually ARE metered with devices capable of monitoring the Power Factor and will be penalized by the POCO if the P.F. gets too bad.

In theory, P.F. correction on ANYTHING could conceivably lower your bill in that it lowers line losses for the POCOs. Any losses are ultimately paid for by the consumer, so in that respect you would save. However, I doubt if you could tell it on your bill.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/06/07 04:47 AM
They demonstrate these "green plug" things with a regulatr utility meter. On an unloaded fractional HP motor the speed of the meter wheel changes significantly.
Posted By: WFO Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/06/07 01:25 PM
Quote
They demonstrate these "green plug" things with a regulatr utility meter. On an unloaded fractional HP motor the speed of the meter wheel changes significantly.

No offense, but I can lose 100 pounds of ugly fat by just taking a pill, too. The dangers of Y2K are still lurking (right next to the Killer Bees), and Ted Kennedy has my best interests at heart.

I'm not one to say something just can't happen, but I rank the "green box" right up there with all the others. I can't help but believe that the "regular utility meter" has been "significantly" tampered with.
Posted By: pauluk Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/07/07 05:19 PM
On first reading of the "blurb," I figured that this box might be some sort of power-factor correction capacitor, but after that the whole idea just falls apart.

As domestic power is billed by true power, and not the apparent power, or VA, then I don't see how p.f. correction would have any effect on the bill.

It would certainly be interesting to see one of these demos of a lightly loaded motor and a slowing meter when a p.f. correction is added.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/07/07 05:37 PM
Maybe we need to find out more about the NASA circuit but I have seen the demo and on an unloaded motor it is significant. The saving drops to zero or even an added usage on a properly loaded motor according to consumer reports tests.
Posted By: InspectorE Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/13/07 08:42 PM
The only demos I've seen are for motors with no load at all. If a product is designed properly, the motor will be sufficiently loaded that little energy savings will occur.

Don't tell that to the public. On 60 minutes quite a few years ago, they interviewed a fellow who installed one on a window shaker air conditioner. He claimed that his energy bill went down about 50% and that the window shaker had become so efficient, that he had to turn the temperature control up so he didn't get cold.

The "theater of the mind" effect.

Frank
Posted By: PE&Master Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/14/07 02:46 AM
There are zero savings to performing power factor correction if your not being billed for it. I have never seen a residential property with a kVAr meter to measure the reactive power.

What does work is a sine wave chopping device that will save money by cutting out part of the current going to a device. Basically shutting down a faction of every wave from the 60 cycles per second. You'll save energy but will deliver less power. A motor requires so much to do so much. Over a long time this will create unwanted heating of the motor.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/15/07 01:05 AM
There is a discussion going on usenet now about this and it appaers this is more than power factor correction. It actually cuts power to a lightly loaded motor like a dimmer.
Posted By: yaktx Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/15/07 03:49 AM
Well, it says it works "in single phrase household". That must be an electrical term I'm not familiar with. I don't know if my household is "single phrase" or not. [Linked Image]

Secondly, they want your PIN number! Next thing, they'll be asking for your drivers license and Social Security. Yeah, right!

No.1 for U.K. and other country

No. 2 for France and other country

No.3 for Australia and other country

No.4 for U.S.A. & Canada and other country

No.5 for India and other country

If I live in other country, I'll be really confused!

RE those "green plug" things: I've seen those displays. I don't know if the meter was altered or not, but you could feel a significant difference in the waste heat from the motor. Here's the catch: How many of us run motors with no load on the shaft? The ad copy says the device "adjusts" the current to match the load. The ones I remember had an ammeter, and the unloaded motor drew about half as much current with the waveform-chopping device connected. What if the motor actually had a normal load on it? How much would you save then?

[This message has been edited by yaktx (edited 01-14-2007).]

[This message has been edited by yaktx (edited 01-14-2007).]
Posted By: 1000BaseT Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/15/07 04:16 AM
I have bought many of these boxes and have them in my home. In fact, I have so many boxes that I'm actually creating excess electricity and selling it back to the power company.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/15/07 04:30 AM
1000BaseT,
Quote
I have bought many of these boxes and have them in my home.

There is one born every day as they say.
There is no excuse for poor design in an electrical installation.
Home-owners should seek the services of a QUALIFIED Electrician when looking to save power.

{Message edited to correct a spelling error}

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 01-14-2007).]
Posted By: 1000BaseT Re: The Wonder "Electricity Saving Box" - 01/16/07 12:52 AM
Quote
There is one born every day as they say.

Truer words were never spoken!
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