Okay, we bought a house, that's old news. Now, time to start planning stuff. My mother has a layout for the living room, and the wall on which she wants the TV isn't exactly the easiest wall to access in a Levittown House. No attic access from above (second floor) and no access from below (cement slab.)

We need to know how to get a cable (TV, not electric) to that wall. Below is a rough drawing of the floorplan, both floors, showing the wall we need to get to in red on both sketches. The only possible solution I see is through that closet and down into the wall.

Oh, did I mention, "NO HOLES IN THE CEILING!" (Which might wind up being "Tough luck!")



The greyed out areas on the upper levels are access spaces, kinda like a crawlspace behind the wall and under the roof. Why couldn't she have it on one of those walls...

Let me know if you need anymore details. I'd provide interior pics for judgement, but I forgot to take them.

Thanks,
Ian (Armed with hammer and dust mask for drywall/plaster destruction) A.

[This message has been edited by Theelectrikid (edited 12-04-2006).]

You could always try Sony's "location free" TV. Look ma, no more cables!

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTER SHOP.enfinity/....

{ Edited to tidy up link }


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-06-2006).]

'Sony Wirefree' aside, [ which looks really good at that price, they're $800 here! ], where are the windows, Ian? Always a problem with a tv on an inner wall is reflection on the screen and sun glare.
Suggest a few test-runs [with Mom involved, please, it's her home!] at chosen locations in daylight before you start eagerly tunnelling into the plasterwork! And don't forget you also need some electrickery for the doohickies!
Practice your 'totally horrified look' in the mirror, in case "run it under the carpet" gets mentioned!

Alan

Edit italic.

[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 12-05-2006).]

Hmm, windows, I forgot about those. Whole front wall of the living room, back wall of the dining room, and that's it for this area of the house. There's none on the Living/Dining room wall, since you'd be looking at a car the whole time.

Ian A.

[This message has been edited by Theelectrikid (edited 12-05-2006).]

no basement? You could drill top plate from attic, and with a divers-a-bit setup, you could get through the 2nd floor/1st ceiling to stud space of the wall, and drop bead chain-with-weight from attic for fishing. Or you could drill top plate in attic, and drill through 2nd floor/1st ceiling from a hole above the baseboard in closet.

There is no attic above this wall.

Ian A.

Some ideas...

Does the living room or bedroom have ceiling can lighting? Often you can remove the cans for access, which will either yeild a cavity all the way to the target wall, or you can use a flexi-bit with extensions through the joists to the target wall.

If there are any appliances on the kitchen partition wall, you removing them might give you the access you need for the other (lving room) side. Cabinets can SOMETIMES be easily removed. No matter what, ALWAYS patch any holes to restore fire ratings to walls... don't just leave the holes open because nobody sees behind there.

On the second floor, you could use the attic crawl space to flexi-bit through the closet wall studs, once you get to the target bedroom partition wall stop (otherwise the bit comes out into the bedroom area). Insert some rods with a light ball chain attached to the end (and wire attached to the other end). Now make your hole on the target wall, insert another flexi-bit to "meet" the rod in the other wall. Remove flexi-bit and insert a "wet noodle" to grab the ball chain. Now pull the rest of the ball chain with wire too.

In the attic crawl spaces on either side, you could also open up the floor in those areas again, yeilding a cavity to the target wall or allowing for the insertion of a flexibit. If you can't easily remove floorboarding, like having to cut through a the solid sheet of plywood, then you're probably better off cutting out some sheetrock from the floor below.

If the second floor has hardwood flooring, often a few boards can be removed and access holes drilled to allow for fishing. Put the hardwood boards removed back right, and you'd never know anyone touched it.

If there are ceiling mouldings, often there is just enough of a gap to allow some creative fishing, giving you "access points" so to speak. Problem is, removing ceiling mouldings is often a destructive process, damaging both the mouldings and wall material.

For the LV wiring only, you could also remove baseboard mouldings and notch the sheetrock or plaster to accept the wiring. That would be least desirable for me, as would running the wires on the inside of closets. Better off making the holes in closet, where patching and painting wouldn't be that noticable.

I think you'll end up getting frustrated and end up making holes for your sanity, but if you truly want to minimize them, those are some ideas I can think of.

Joe

By the way, is this home platform framed or balloon framed?

If the living room and bedroom walls are exactly atop of one another, try locating your outlets in the same wall cavity, so you can pass the cables from the bedroom partition wall to living room partition wall... then all you need to worry about is from where is easier to branch off to the source(s) (bedroom wall or living room wall).

If the house is balloon framed, the living room and bedroom "partition" wall could be load bearing straight to the roof, so there would be no drilling upstairs to downstairs. Also above the second floor, the cable could almost roll down the slanted ceiling into the side attic "crawl space".

I think the most helpful thing you can do is get some diagrams on home framing... this will give you the "X-ray vision" template on what your possibilities might be for running the cables.

Good luck!

Joe

Cutting holes is not such a bad idea. It would be a great time to talk her into a new paint job for the room. If it's like most houses it just a plain off-white?

Tell her you know she'd like to paint it something else anyway. Nows a perfect time.

I'm not that lucky, it's all RED wallpaper, and it matches our couch perfectly.

Ian A.

Hows your carpentry skills Ian? We're about to learn a little about framing...

First there is no problem with drilling down if it is a bearing wall - that is if they match up, and pretty sure from here that they will. But it would be wise to measure from outside walls on each floor to make sure - even off by an inch or two you should be OK.

You can also safely assume that this is platform framing, as it is not a Victorian.... Or built in the 1890's...

Either way one can bet that the joists 8 of 10X's that the joist will run in the short dimention across the house. e.g. if the house is a rectangle - it would be that short dimention. And the joists will run accross the wall you plan to go down by looking at your sketch. Often - but not always the studs and joist will line up on the first floor, and often fairly close to lining up on the second floor. That said if you open up a stud bay in the closet up stairs you should be right above the wall you want to get into.

Measure from the front of the house on each floor to see if the area you want the tv at is below or close to the closet above, or if it ends up in the bedroom...

If in the closet... Use a good and powerfull magnet to find the screws that hold the sheet-rock on the wall, and that will tell you were the studs are... Take a level, or a plumb-bob and put a line up-down on the wall where the studs are on each side of the stud bay. And open the steetrock from the center of each stud in the bay you want from about 4" above the baseboard to ~20" high. Carefully remove the piece of rock, so you can put it back.... (You'll crack an edge - don't worry...) This way you can fit a drill into the wall.

Put a mark or tape on a 7/8" spade bit about 4 1/2" from the flat cutters, and drill through the bottom (two) plates and the sub-floor in the middle of the stud-bay. Carefull to go slower at the mark. If you go past the mark you are on the joist - do not continue... Move over a few inches and try again... This will put you in the joist-bay, and you should be able to peer down with a flashlight to see the top-plate of the wall below. Drill trough the center of that with a 1/2" x 18" bit. Then you are in the stud bay of the wall below. Your kitchen is below that.... So be carefull, there may be other things in the wall...

Try to drop a jack-chain, or a bunch of 1/4-20 nuts on a string down the wall, if there is plumbing or worse blocking... Then its plan B...

If not run surface in the closet, and into you hole in the closet down to the TV loc...

Anyway, you should do some more planning and take it slow if you do this yourself.

Good on ya guys,
This sort of work was all I used to do after I came out of my time as an Electrician.
I did a whole restaurant this way (Yes, that one John), just by "pocket work".
It is time consuming and yes it is frustrating, but the rewards are up there, if only a psychological one.
I HATE seeing anything run on the surface, it's the lazy way out.
Of course. a totally concrete building would be an exception.

Just bumping this up before I go to bed. The target wall and upstairs closet are 6" apart.

Ian A.

If you can open a hole in the closet drywall you could poke a hole in the sole plate, through the floor, into the joist bay. Then, if you had one of those "extendo lights" (light on a skinny tube) you could poke in the hole, you might be able to see the top plate below. I certainly would not start poking holes in the first floor until I was sure what was on the other side.
If your mom is a real good sport you could punch an exploratory hole with a straightened coathanger wire, with a point ground on it, turned real slow to see where you are downstairs. Don't push it, let the tool do the work (to keep from blowing out a chunk of drywall). Have someone below holler out when it starts coming through and you may end up with an insignificant pin prick that is unnoticable or at least easy to hide. I have also seen tricks with magnet retrievers and iron filings or a compass to "see" through drywall. Hold the magnet against the drywall and go looking for it on the other side. A little compass will usually point right to it. Move it around to triangulate the spot. The iron filing trick can be spectacular but you need a real good magnet (we used rare earth magnets out of disk drives) and it can be a little dirty.

Jubilee? Don't they have soffits on the front and back of the house where the first and second stories meet?

Cable box is outside, yes?

Stay outside and go into a soffit that lines up with the target wall spot. You'd have to notch drywall on the top of the wall to drill the plate, but patching that wouldn't be bad.
Hiding the cable under the siding isn't hard.

But I don't remmember what the outside of the Jubilees look like, got any pics?

That's what they're called. Yes they do, with access panels on both sides of the large room, and only the front of the smaller room.


Umm, did I mention this house is original as they get, right down to the Asbestos Shingles that shatter if you so much as look at them funny.

Where the cable box is located, we're just shooting a cable into the garage attic and up into the attic/soffit behind the larger bedroom.


Here's a pic of the meter location,


Here's a pic of the bathroom dormer, only here to show what the siding looks like,

Thanks guys,
Ian A.

[Edited 'cause I can't type at 7:am]

[This message has been edited by Theelectrikid (edited 01-20-2007).]

If you have baseboard molding around the perimeter of the rooms and it's not glued to the walls, you can cut the bottom of the baseboard, which should be ~3/4" thick, at a 45 degree angle (or use a router) then you'll have a space behind the baseboard to run the cable.

The old "behind the baseboard trick." I've even used it myself once or twice. Just remember the steel plate required to protect the cable, if the cable is less than 1 1/4" back from the surface!

I had a similar install a few years ago. I got a break. The upstairs closet was carpet over subfloor. I sent my wire down thru the wall from the attic. Then I carefully remover and saved the base, cut the drywall behind the base, drilled thru the bottom plate and subfloor to the joist space. Then I peeled the carpet back and drilled (2) 1" holse thru the subfloor. One to use as a peephole and one to stick my extension bit into to drill thru the plates below. I got lucky and didn't destroy anything. I put the carpet back, kickplated the wall, put the base back and my customer was happy. Good luck.