Hi,

I've taken the pre-apprenticeship training for electrical, but I've taken it by correspondence (the local college had a two-and-a-half-year waitlist) and am now having trouble breaking into the trade -- due to lack of hands-on experience and general concern that me being a woman will create difficult work politics. It won't -- I'm not some raging PC activist, and I'm here to work, not to sweat the small stuff. My partner is a construction worker, I've heard/seen it all.

I've applied not only for apprenticeships but also for "helper" positions, and even proposed a temporary job-shadow situation (working for free) in order to gain experience but have been turned down time and again. Big companies, small companies... HOW can I get some field experience? I've done some basic household wiring, but what else can I do to get my foot in the door?

Any advice would be really appreciated.

Thanks!

darn there was a bucn of listings here but the page is be rebuilt by the looks of it. http://www.bcelectrician.com/resumes.html

[This message has been edited by dougwells (edited 11-20-2006).]

Really can speak for the great white north - but don't see gender as a hold back. I have had women under me, (no pun intended...) and as PM's and Owners. Dare I say it - do not fall into the trap of thinking you always have to prove yourself - it annoys everyone.... And as far as worksite politics - it is not much unlike the military, you will be expected to pull your own weight. I think as long as you make it clear that you can and will, you should not have a problem. You should also note that you are entering the job market in winter - historicaly slow, especially around the Holidays - even in temperate climates like mine in SF, CA resi comes to a halt, and commercial is on slow track. Late winter, and early spring there are a lot of start-ups and people start building crews then. As you have little to no experiance, you would either be better suited on a sizable crew or under the wing of a small shop. Medium sized shops will be looking for journey level labor as they can self-support.... You need to focus at this point on the companies that are looking for bodies or bees. Or the old fat guy that cant fit in a few places anymore... And willing to teach. Both are out there....

I'm not sure if I should be touching this thread. But if you want the truth. Gender does matter from what I seen over the last 13 years. Owner's are reluctant to hire female just because it has potential to problems with other workers or whatever.With so many males to choose from, thats usally the way it goes.This is a bottlenecked trade. Many trying to get in, with only a few getting in at a time.

You stick to it. There is nothing in this trade that requires a "Y" chromosome. If you don't act like a girl they won't treat you like one.
My wife is a job super for a production buildert and she had a little bit of a problem getting respect in the beginning but this year she was voted the #1 super the trades would rather work for.
Just concentrate on learning your craft, do your job and the rest will follow.

Girl,

Welcome to ECN.
The following Link was sent to me (about 4 years ago) It is a site started by a Woman Journeyman Electrician in California. There might be some info there that would be of help.
http://members.tripod.com/~barbijo/hers.html

Good Luck,
Bill

Here is a story from BC http://www.bcelectrician.com/girlsview.html

[This message has been edited by dougwells (edited 11-20-2006).]

I have to agree with Skpr on this one. If I were in the position to hire I would not hire a female, yeah I know, it's not fair it's not right but thats the way it is. My problem would not be with the female but the other guys working with her. They get out of line then it's either loose a good Jman or loose money in a lawsuit, I'd avoid dealing with it entirely by not hiring females.

I've worked with females in the military and the trade and had bad experiences with both. In the military, one complaint whether it's true or not you are basically screwed. In the trade I worked with two females, neither one could load their vans with 1000' spools of romex, so we got stuck doing it most mornings, if you make the same pay as me you should be able to do the same work.

Now that you think I'm a female hating neanderthal I'll tell you where I think female electricians would do really well, service departments. For the most part you are on your own in your own van and usually the job requires more brains than brawn, of course we are back at your original problem, how to get your foot in the door to gain the experience needed to work in a service department.

Wow, thanks for all the replies in such a short period of time! I'm wondering more about what type of experience I should be looking to get and how. I know it's slow season, etc., etc., but IF you were hiring, what would impress you about somebody just entering the trade? What would make you go for it?

Me being a woman, as has been pointed out, matters to some and not to others. I've found it matters to more than I had initially expected, but that's an issue that won't matter so much if I can just get some experience to begin with. And uh.. roughly what does a 1000' spool of romex weigh? I'll get on that. ;D

I think Lone Gunman put it perfectly, most are just worried about a lawsuit. If it helps, I've worked as a civi for the military and it seems that sadly there are alot of BS claims just because they are trying to take the whole "equality" thing so seriously that is no longer in fact equal -- woman cries wolf, yer a wolf, that's it, no questions. I sympathize.

Personally, I don't have to hide behind some stupid harrassment suit, I handle myself thank you, I'm not some socially inept helpless waif. There would have to be something downright forceful involved and it would take a real sick f--- to push things that far.

e57 - thanks for the targetting tips. And the grin. ;D

So, what type of experience can I try to get over the next guy to get into this? PLC programming? Should I try to get in at a motor/controls shop for awhile? What is going to put me ahead.

Hi germs, and welcome to the trade! It would be nice to see more women in the field. The few that I have seen tend to be very good at what they do and try a little harder - just ot prove themselves if nothing else.

My advice is to get in ANYWHERE that will give you ANY hands-on experience. You say your partner is in construction - maybe that will help you get into a jobsite - even as a helper. Residential, industrial, commercial - whatever will get you some hours in the field with some wire in your hands. Even being on a job site as general labor will give you a chance to network with whomever is on site as the EC. This could lead to prospective job placement opportunities, especially if they can see that you are a hard worker.

A motor shop may give you some hands-on wiring experience, but I don't see it helping you much as far as elecrical application. That seems more of a manufacturing type thing, unless you plan on specializing in motor control later as an electrician.

Basically, get what you can where you can get it, and best of luck to you!

99% of the advice I can give would apply just as well to anyone - not just a lady!

I believe that there IS a role in the trade for women. Not 'girls,' not 'dikes,' not 'princesses.' Just your ordinary person who happens to be female.

Unfortunately, the trades get a fair share of forever adolescents. Most of these weed themselves out after a few years - the little kiddies just can't stick with anything. Unfortunately, they can make a job a noghtmare for everyone else.
A lot can depend upon the foreman. Some seem to make an art of mis-management, and their crews are hell to work with. At least, in a program, the directors know this, act as a check, and can place you in another crew.

Let's get away from 'electric work' for a second. Ever learn to play a musical instrument? You seem to spend forever playing the same notes over and over, going from one silly drill to another ... then, suddenly, you have learned enough little bits to actually be able to learn to make music!

The first two years of the trade are surely like that. It seems that all you do is dig, bend pipe, and pull wire. Always crawlimg, climbing, lifting, squeezing. You also get to do all sorts of "non-electric" work ... drywall repair, roof repair, tree pruning, cement finishing, jackhammering, etc. Don't despair.

You get to do this stuff for a few basic reasons:
- It needs to get done;
- You need to learn how to do it;
- You simply don't yet know enough to do other stuff; and,
- You need to learn certain attitudes, like persistance, and paying atention to detail.

Preparation? ANY construction skills you can bring will be gladly accepted. A little framing, drywall / texture work, etc will help you .... not only how to do something, but to learn what a job site is all about.

Another major thing you can do is to first take a job at an electrical supply house. This will both introduce you to the folks in the trade, as well give you a chance to learn the names of all the bits and pieces. (And you thought only witches used batwings? Electricians do - to secure pipe to ceiling wires).

Getting into a program is key. Keep plugging away. Apply to multiple programs, if you can. The Re-apply- at every opportunity. You WILL hear "NO" a LOT. Continue with your community college work.

And don't rule out work in related trades. Industrial Maintenance Electrician. Telephone Company splicer. CATV installer. Alarm installer. Datacom. Satellite TV. Central vacuums.

And -prob the best idea of all- drop by the chat room some night. We'd love to talk with you.

Best chances of employment for a female electrician: Government! Check out local, state and federal agencies. They often have or support apprenticeship programs.
Next on the list: Military! Get a top secret clearance and name your salary when you get out.
Government jobs don't pay as well as private employers for skilled labor, but they have sound pensions, holidays, and job security.

What about a contractor that does Gov't work that needs to fill a quota??

girl germs,

i know it's not PC, but no one has asked...how old are you?

I ask for two reasons, if you are older (35+) many contractors look at you the same as older male green apprentices - no good.

If you are young (20-25) many contractors look at you and are afraid that they will invest time and money training you, then you will get married, have kids and quit. Sad fact, but true.

This could play into just as much as anything else.

So, just tell them that you are fixed and can't have kids

why did you get turned down by the appenticeship(s) ?

I used to get that quite a lot, it was tough but I grinned and bore it and I got more than my fair share of all that crap. Those days are over now I drop the PE on most who cause trouble - cause when it aint got a PE stamp it aint happening. It's hell for folk who need certification quickly to be hanging around cause I am getting my own back because I had to put up with their BS on the jobsite or whatever. Your time will come don't despair.

Hiya Germs
While I agree with some, but not all of what's been said above.. Stick to your guns and you'll do fine I've worked with a female apprentice before with no problems whatsoever on a couple TI jobs. She took care of the things I asked for, not to mention a decent hand and eye for conduit bending. I also had a female J-man help me on a deuce of a service job I had thrown in my lap a few years ago... she was awesome as well..
As far as being able to lift 1000' of romex off a truck, our company has male helpers that would have a helluva time with that as well.. Some people are just stronger than others... male OR female. (Romex comes in 250' rolls that I'm sure you could handle ) Brains and an sharp eye for details will carry you much further in this trade than braun, but don't be afraid of getting a bit (or really) dirty now and then.
A smaller EC shop might be easier to get your foot in the door to just coming into the trade, (especially one that does alot of T&M). get some on the job experience along with the classes you're taking/have taken, I don't see any problems getting to where you want to be.. There are alot of facets to the electrical trades. Look into all of em! Gov't apprentice electrician jobs are rare, (at least where I've been)but could hold a good future once you've been around the trade for a while. (The girl who helped me on the service call was also an electrician for LAUSD)
Reality will be that you might be looked at by some as a "female" vs. an "electrician".. This is unfortunate, but in my experience around female j-men, rare.
As John (renosteinke) said, drop by the chat sometime... There's people from all over the place that do all different parts of the electrical trades here... Not to mention decades and decades of experience. This is a great place to learn about most anything in the electrical biz

Best wishes
Randy

Hey there girl germs,

Federal or government jobs could be an option for you. I work for TVA, a federal organization that is always looking to improve the gender ratios. I would recommend you check out their website and do a job search. www.tva.gov Good luck in whatever you decide to do though!

Luke

thanks everybody..

My user name was just in jest... poking fun, y'know. I didn't mean to make a big issue out of it, but due to my lack of experience it is an amplifier and I have run into problems with it. Work well done speaks for itself, so I know this won't be the case later down the road. It's just getting there...

mahlere asked my age, and yes I fall into the younger category -- 25 -- but I'm already fairly hitched and have a kid (no plans for more), and even IF the unspeakable were to happen (maternity leave), there would be plenty of notice (6+ months?) and I'd be back. Really not such a scary thing. I don't do barefoot in the kitchen -- except for occasional fun of course. ;D

Well I guess we've pretty much covered it, then, I'll keep plugging away with what I'm doing... I just wanted to check that there wasn't some first-step opportunity I'm overlooking. And maybe renosteinke is right -- if I get fed-up knocking on doors I'll just go be a happy little workhorse in construction for awhile and bide my time.

togol asked why I've been turned down for apprenticeships: it's mostly the experience thing. The old paradox of needing experience and noplace to get it. I've had issues with the politics, too, but if I just had some experience to go on I could clear that hurdle. I had a good shot at one apprenticeship actually, but it turned out that I'd have to be out of town for weeks at a time and I'm not in a position to do that until my son is older. I can do a few days, but not weeks unfortunately. That's just my lot.

Thanks for all the input, I'll be lurking around. And thanks for the chat invite, I'll drop in sometime.

I recently hired a female apprentice about 6 weeks ago. Although I haven't had the time or opportunity to work directly with her myself, I've been asking my journeymen how she's doing and they have told me she's doing fine and enjoy working with her. So far there hasn't been anyone questioning her abilities, and no one has found her to be an "oddity" on the job.

She had applied at a lot of places with no luck. She happened to apply to me at the right time - I needed an apprentice, and I gave her the chance. I also felt that since she's a woman in a "man's trade", she would go the extra mile to prove herself.

I let her know of my concerns when I interviewed her: working with men where the language can be harsh at times, washroom issues (what if there's no porta john availiable?), the ability to carry her weight, etc. I also informed her that there would be no favortism because she was a woman...she would be treated like any other apprentice...crawling around in attics or dig holes for ground plates would be common. She had no problem with that.

So far, so good.

Best wishes for you in pursuing your goals.

Gidday there Mate,
Look don't ever think that being a female is any sort of a hinderance to being an Electrician.
I've trained 2 female apprentices and I reckon they are better than some of the boys I've trained.
One of my best apprentices is now Chief Electrician at Pukeuri Freezing Works here in New Zealand.
No tip of my hat, it was all her that did it.
She only done well because she wanted to get in and get her hands dirty and was willing to listen.
Most parts of training here in NZ, is "come over here and have a look at this", some of our young people aren't interested, if you are, get into it I say, one instance of that helped me pass my Trade Certificate Exam.
Also Girl Germs, Welcome to ECN,
Nice to have you along.
Cheers,
Mike.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 11-22-2006).]

I am really very surprised at the responses here.

Anyway we have had women electricians working with us and they do as fine as anyone. Our work is large commercial.

We also have women project managers.



Sixer you may want to remind the GC about OSHA 1926.51(C).

At least one available toilet for up to 20 workers.

Girl Germs,
Have you gone to the union? I'd say it's worth a try.
I once had a male helper that could not get a 24 foot extention ladder off of the truck!

I've got to find out when I can challenge the exam at the local college since the union doesn't recognize anything but. Or send in the full curriculum from my course and wait months while they decide if it's equivalent. So, union is probably a good bet, but they won't even say hello to me at this point, I have to jump through that little hoop first.

question: if I get on board with the union, does that then mean that I can't accept work from a non-union shop? how easy is it to quit/rejoin the union later? Don't know much about what the union does exactly.

thanks

PS: I can handle heavy work to a reasonable degree (100lbs-more if it's not too awkward, I can lift my boyfriend - 170lbs), and if there's no washroom anywhere closeby, well I'm sure I could make friends with a bush. Not like we women have never been away from the city before.

I used to get in trouble at one of my previous workplaces for lifting the same equipment the guys did every day... They were worried I'd get injured and file a WCB claim, but not the guys??? It's not like the guys were real muscleheads or anything, ordinary string beans really. Go figure.

I would not, at this point, sweat the union thing. Before you can make a choice, you have to be qualified first.

Right now, it's all about the training. Training through the union is superb. It is universally recognised. It can result in a college degree.

Nor would I, at this point, worry to much about "a few years down the road." Fact is, you will find learning the trade a great preparation for several other things. For example, your understanding of jobsites can set the stage for becomming an inspector or project manager when you're a bit older, and running up and down ladders all day has lost its' charm.

Think of a "journeyman card" as the beginning of the journey, rather than the end!

Girl Germs
One way to get ahead is to be polite, hungry for knowledge, keep a neat personal appearance, keep asking for details that will feed your mind. Get a Benfield bending kit and you can outbend men who've done it for years. Study PLC's or go to work for a contractor who does energy management work and learn how to do the complicated stuff requiring a bunch of tiny wires, learn programming, learn motor control wiring, seek out the things that require brains, it is ok if you never spend all day pulling 8,000 pounds of 500 MCM copper, get a copy of Soares' Grounding Electrical Sys. for Safety, get really good at stuff most guys are not real sharp about. And when you get there, remind the non-thinkers that it is "Journeywomen", one who has skills and is able to journey from shop to shop to Master this stuff. Don't be afraid to speak up for yourself, I can barely handle a 1,000 foot spool of 12-3, can't imagine handeling say, 500' of 2/0, ask for help. Tell those crusty bas&%$#s who run that "I expect you to work as hard as the guys do" that's fine, but they wouldn't expect a skinny little dude to hoist more than he could SAFELY carry, nor should they put you in a position where you could hurt yourself. Lots of men can hoist the heavy burdens, yet can't troubleshoot a mis-wired 3 way switch. I would prefer technicians who are sharp with the technology and techniques and polite to the customers. Think how can I be of service here? Great Good Luck to you.

Hey, some good solid advice!! ;D thanks.

I'm really glad I found this board, it's nice to have a space to ask questions and get honest answers from a variety of viewpoints, where everyone can let down their guard a bit because of the relative anonymity. It's great to get the pep talks and also get a clearer view of where the friction might be coming from.

Thanks everyone for all your input. I was wondering if I was maybe missing something, but the responses here have let me know I'm on the right track, I'll just keep at it and eventually I'll break through. A good dose of confidence does wonders. =)

I was a apprentice with 5000 hours and just recentley left the field. The whys are not really inportant but this website and group of people have been the greatest. These are the best of the best when it comes to helping people out. My only advice would be to be alert and stay safe. Always watch for trip and falling hazards.Dont be afraid to use the chat room. These are the most professional people you will ever talk to on the internet. Be safe and good luck to you.
Steve Ancient Apprentice
Yes i got the name because im 48 years old

Girlgerms
looks like this page is back up
http://www.bcelectrician.com/resumes.html

Thanks, Doug!

Nice to see it's back online and thanks for the heads up...

And BETTER YET, I don't need it anymore!!! Landed myself an apprenticeship with a great little company and I'm having a blast.

I am happier than a pig in the proverbial.

Thanks everyone!

Congratulations

Good Luck , be safe and careful