In other threads you read often about big houses and high kVA capacity installed but never anything about the true power usage hence this thread.

Ok our case. Family 2 adults, 2 children under 9.
We use 12000 kWh per year.
All electric household with 3 kW 40 gallon hotwater cylinder.
4 x 2.2kW electric plug in heaters over the two cold months. These may run only for a few hours because our place is well insulated.
9.1 kW electric range
2.4 kW dryer
2.4 kW dishwasher
2 fridges < 1 kW each
The usuall kitchen stuff like a wok, toaster, frying pan, coffe machine, mixer etc etc.
Then heaps of the usuall equipments like 4 VCR's, 5 TV's, 2 computers, 2 stereos, etc.
Lights: 5 high efficiency CFL lamps 4 double fluorescent lamps and about 25 normal filament lamps rated between 40 and 100 Watts.

This is all fed from a single phase supply rated at 63 Amps at 230 Volts 50 Hz rewirable pole fuse.
You have to load it up to about 100 Amps for a while to blow those anyway.

I have check meters in my place and over the 15 years we are in our house never exceeded 12.5 kW over a 15 minute interval which equates at around 54 Ampères continuous.

I'm Interested to see yearly usuages in the USA and other countries so please post your data.
Thanks

Raymond

Good question! I don't think I've ever actually sat down and looked at the number of kilowatt-hours I'm using oer year.

I'm all-electric:

* Range with usual 4 hobs, grill, & oven. Usual kitchen appliances of toaster, kettle, microwave oven, etc.

* Storage heaters, charged on night rate, about 10kW total load although I rarely have them all turned on. (I turned a couple on about two weeks ago and that was the first time since April.)

* 3kW immersion heater, on timeswitch to run for about 1-1/2 hours on night rate early each morning. That usually lasts the day, unless I need to give it a half-hour boost for an evening bath.

* 7.5kW instant shower. Only runs for the duration, of course.

* Washing machine, 3kW heating element, typical heating cycle is about 15 minutes, used on average once or twice per week.

* One fridge-freezer, occasional use of 1kW radiant heater in bathroom or other portable heaters, plus all the usual TV, computer, radio & hi-fi, lights, etc. Oh, and the 1.21 gigawatts I need for some of my experiments...... (Only kidding! ).

I can't find bills for before February at the moment, but from 2/17/06 up to today I've used 8027 kW-h (comprised of 3981 units daytime, 4046 units at night rate).

Wow, that's a lot!
At School we calculated a photovoltaic system for a house that uses 9500 kWh/year and were told that's REALLY much for the Austrian average.

Quoting RODALCO:

"Then heaps of the usuall equipments like 4 VCR's, 5 TV's, 2 computers, 2 stereos, etc."

You meter guys do all right down under. Five TV's?

Our biggest user in Texas is the air conditioning. The "old" houses used to have window units. Then they went to 2 and 3 ton units. Now the trend is to install big 5 ton units and complain about the lights dimming when it cuts on.
Of course, some of these units have 60 Kw or more of heat strips. When one house has two or three units, you can imagine the heating load.

(Momentary rant......Why does a person that cannot exist in the summer if it's warmer than 68 degrees can't exist in the winter if it's not at least 82 degrees?.....end of rant)

Your kwh question has piqued my curiousity. I'll see if I can get our IT guy to run some averages.

I got curious a few years ago so a created a simple Excel spreadsheet. It has columns: "READ DATE", "KWH USED", "DAYS", "KWH/DAY", "BILL TOTAL", and "COMMENTS". The only formula is dividing the 2nd column entry by the 3rd to get my average daily usage. Some of the notes are about previous bills being estimated, use of A/C and swapping 6, 13W CFs for 60W incandescent bulbs in the kitchen. I could see a difference from the CFs. I also noticed the increased consumption from firing up the humidifier. That's when I switched to using 2 decorative fountains and one I built for my little girl, and plants to add moisture. Now, I tend to use 8 to 10 KWH per day until A/C season, when I get into the mid to upper 20s. My highest average was 39.61 KWH/DAY but I have a comment that the previous bill was estimated. I think everyone should do something like this because it is easy to just open up the spreadsheet and enter the numbers on the day you get your bill.
Joe

Below is a copy paste from my utility website relative to my home account.
I live in a relative new larger home (2001), well insulated.
The columns are a little hard to follow, but the first is billing Period, KWH, Cost for kWH, natural gas Use (CCF) and Cost for CCF
For example for the period beginning 8/24/06 and ending 9/25/06 we used 793kWH of electricity and paid $141.35. We used 31 CCF of natural gas and paid $52.73

8/24/2006 9/25/2006 793 $141.35 31 $52.73
7/24/2006 8/24/2006 1,317 $226.80 21 $38.82
6/26/2006 7/24/2006 1,247 $217.87 23 $42.13
5/24/2006 6/26/2006 967 $125.51 29 $54.57
4/25/2006 5/24/2006 625 $81.38 62 $104.09
3/27/2006 4/25/2006 593 $72.23 109 $185.64
2/24/2006 3/27/2006 636 $86.67 253 $373.78
1/26/2006 2/24/2006 635 $88.98 255 $419.24
12/27/2005 1/26/2006 745 $115.60 247 $434.69
11/23/2005 12/27/2005 955 $139.79 306 $510.48
10/25/2005 11/23/2005 647 $119.60 152 $282.14
9/23/2005 10/25/2005 697 $130.59 63 $121.38
8/24/2005 9/23/2005 1,017 $171.38 22 $41.17
7/25/2005 8/24/2005 1,451 $254.81 20 $35.48
6/23/2005 7/25/2005 1,354 $190.53 23 $38.42
5/24/2005 6/23/2005 1,003 $132.39 36 $49.79
4/25/2005 5/24/2005 556 $78.33 83 $113.50
3/24/2005 4/25/2005 599 $76.34 147 $202.07
2/24/2005 3/24/2005 540 $69.82 269 $327.83
1/26/2005 2/24/2005 604 $82.06 294 $378.34
12/22/2004 1/26/2005 910 $113.57 371 $474.12
11/22/2004 12/22/2004 709 $83.99 240 $308.60
10/21/2004 11/22/2004 661 $83.66 170 $214.10

I'm a power sucker I guess.

Around 30-35 KWH/day. Although some days in the summer got down to the low 20s (I was reading the meter every day, and plugging that into a spreadsheet).

We have a 100A 120/240V service, electric range, dryer (winter/inclement weather only, clothesline in the good summer), and hot water, no A/C, no furnace (heating circulation is limited to a 10W fan behind the woodstove and a ceiling fan). And the usual tools/equipment used on a far, including 2HP of hay conveyors (one has a 1.5 HP motor, the other 1/2 HP). The winter sees a 1.5 KW or 750W tractor coolant heater used (depending on tractor). Our well/shop is on another service.

Well, I just figured out what my parents place uses per day average for the last billing period... Try 50 KwH / Day! BUT a note as well this was an "Estimate" or so it says on the bill for the past 2 months, ending oct 31.
Figures though in this house, there is 2 referigerators, one upright freezer, 4 TV's, Dishwasher with a 1500W booster heater and a natural gas compressor that has a 1 hp motor.
Summer "extras" are the 1 HP pool circ pump and a somewhat newer 2-ton A/C. Winter "extras" are the 4800W heater in the shed to keep it just above freezing and MAYBE the 500W block heaters (3) for the vehicles on the cold nights.
Lighting around here is mostly 15 and 23W compact fluorescents and the kitchen, utility room and shed are all 4' T-8 fixtures with electronic ballasts.
Outdoor lighting is 6-35W HPS HPF potlights, one 70W HPS HPF Flood and a 50W HPS HPF post light, and 90% of the time the flood is the only light used.

The stove, dryer and water heater are all gas.

A.D

I am cruising in the 16-18mwh/yr range.
That is all electric appliances with a well, pool and spa so that is really my only bill besides the cable and phone. I pay a about half as much for TV/broadband as I do electricity.

Don't forget that TV's use power even when they are off. Same goes for adapters for cell phones even with the phone disconnected. Not alot of power but when you have two kids, many TV's, adapters for toys, X-box.....
I try to unplug whatever is not being used as much as possible!

Sorry, did someone mention that already?

Agreed eddy current.

I hate these newer appliances with no proper on / off switches which don't switch the primary of the mains transformer.
You always have a transformer energised and pay for the magnetising current in the latter. Say 10 times 60 mA's is 600 mA's just being consumed 24/7.
Same applies to SMPS in VCR's etc

WFO Most TV's are old, the newest is perhaps 4 y.o. the oldest 25 y.o.

gfretwell I like the usuage expressed in MWh.

edited for typo's RF.

[This message has been edited by RODALCO (edited 11-05-2006).]

Here's our consumption of electricity for the last period I have full figures for;
August 2005 thro' July 2006 = 52 weeks:

Standard rate 3923 kwh
Off peak, 2715 kwh
Total 6638 kwh

= 0.76kw continuous average, say 3A @ 230v.
Peak amps might approach 50+ when I start up 'Big Bertha', my 20" planer.

Last year we burned around 1350 litres of diesel, gross calorific 13,500 kwh, + 2 [French] cords of oak, say gross 17,000 kwh.
It was, however, a long cold winter.

Now as some of you will know, I have gone a bit bananas on energy conservation in my remodel of the old place next door. Once we move down that end, I expect to see some startling reductions. This end is not bad, around 4" of glasswool. We are just having the windows fitted now, D.G. 0.25" - 3/4" - 0.25", Argon filled. The insulation is 8" minimum of glasswool walls and loft, with additional home-made foil and bubblewrap membrane the whole south facing roof under the slates. Ground floor has 4" of foam under the underfloor heating pipes, which unusually are fitted under the upper floor too. These are supposed to save energy by phyisiologics, allowing you to drop the thermostat 3 degrees F for an equivalent heating effect. Ventilation is largely forced fan, no recycling; [0.3 airchanges an hour], with an integral 1.0kw heat exchanger to save on heating and aircon bills. Aircon is a Daisikai reversible duplex unit by Toshiba, dc motors so no power surges and with a COP over 4; ie it heats too, about 4kw ouput. Toshiba sized the unit on the heat loss/ house size data I supplied. My calcs show a heat requirement, including ventilation, of around 2.5kw with the outside t = 30F & inside t = 68F.
Soon find out! - 'er indoors says if we ain't moved in down there by August 2007, she will "sell my tractor and get some Pro's in!"

Yes, my little pirana fish!

Alan

Rod, Good topic!



[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 11-05-2006).]

Dang, Ron, where do you live. Round here 1000 kwhs is bout $80. Tennessee

New York (suburb of NYC).
At least I don't have to pay demand charges yet like my clients in the city.

So-called "solar houses" with negative power consumption usually cheat and use gas heat and gas hot water, and aren't actually as wonderfully green as they appear on the surface. To actually heat a home in the dead of winter in the northern US, you'd need an exorbitant amount of solar panels- about a quarter acre worth, IIRC, and even then it doesn't work when it's cloudy. I've got all the calcs at home if anyone is interested.

In sunny climates closer to the equater, solar can make a significant difference.

I recently clamped my house and was astonished to see my entire house with TVs, computers, lights, everything- was only drawing 3A on one phase, and 15A on the other, and 9A of that was a 1000W worklight my wife was using at the time. (I have electric heat, AC and hot water, none of which were running at the time. But I *did* kick-start them all to see what the actual power draw was!)

I derated a bit for voltage drop when I built my addition. In retrospect, I think I may have oversized my conductors, lol. Especially considering the pole xfmr is only capable of 106A for the entire block!

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 11-07-2006).]

Back when Jimmy Carter was giving a tax rebate for solar I knew some IBM engineer types who were solar fanatics. One guy in Manassas had an active solar home heating system that worked if the sun was shining. The problem was he still needed a regular system for when it wasn't and the maintenance was a nightmare. None of those guys are solar fans now.
I was reading an article about Germany's PV solar program. They pay about 20 euro cents a KWH for power but the PV solar producers get 50. Taxes make up the difference.
I suppose if the cost of power doubles and the cost of the PV arrays halfs it might become attractive. I ran the numbers for using solar to run my pool pump, a nice predictable load that is somewhat flexible. When I projected the payback time ... well I would have been 82.

Solar is perhaps one of the DIRTIEST and INEFFICIENT forms of energy there is. Not only that, solar energy is NEGATIVE output technology. In other words, the energy input needed to manufacture a PV solar panel will far exceed the expected energy output over its anticipated lifetime (like everything else, solar cells will not last forever).

In order produce a PV solar cell, you start with silica sand, which in order to melt needs a temperature of 1600*C (nearly 3000*F) for that to occur. Do you realize the amount of fossil fuels that must be burned to acheive those temperatures? Once the sand is molten, crystal growth starts which isn't an instant process, the sand must stay molten for a very long time. After the crystal is "grown" and has cooled, it goes through a number of manufacturing processes under tight environmental controls... all of which uses lots of... not to mention the climate controls for the building, and energy to maintain a clean room and so on.

Bottom line is, to manufacture ONE square meter silicon PV solar cell takes FIVE GIGAJOULES of energy. A one square meter solar cell will NEVER produce five gigajoules of energy in its lifetime. EVER.

Solar energy is a complete and utter waste. If you subscribe to all the global warming nonsense, those solar cells that make you feel good about saving the planet resulted in the production of far more "greenhouse gas" than would otherwise have occured with "dirtier" forms of fossil fuel energy.

Wind power is another complete and utter waste too... look at how much real estate you need to utilitze to produce 1 MW of power. Compare that to the real estate a 1 MW natural gas or diesel generator utilizes. And what about all the endangered birds that get chopped up in those propellers, LOL?

Joe

Gentlemen, please be careful where you go with this thread.

We will not discuss political issues which seems to be where we are headed.

Agreed iwire, I made this topic to discuss annual electric power consumption in kWh, MWh, not political stuff.

Just interseting to see the yearly average usages in different states and countries around the world.

Cheers

Rod

Rod I think this is an excellent thread.

As a 'glutenous' American I am interested in how our real power consumption stacks up against other countries.

IMO many of our services in the US are grossly over sized compared to actual usage.

The owner of the company I work for has a very large home.

The service is 288 KW, (120/240 volt 1,200 amp) he will never need it.

I think it is more about bragging rights.

I use about 30 kwh(higher in winter, lower in summer) a day. Solar hot water with Electric back up, Hot Tub in basement,oil fired furnace,laptops, tvs, lights, satelite recievers etc. Just came home and the TV was on and no one was home. 11 yr old left it on when he left for school

It's hard for any discussion about power NOT to get political, because the issue of power has become so politicized in recent decades.

Discussions about power outages can especially become very political, which is why I refrain entering those discussions whenever they are brought up. I might have plenty of knowledge and insight, instead I just keep my mouth shut for this reason. But it's impossible NOT to bring up politics, when politics is SPECIFICALLY what prevents the things necessary to bring and ensure reliable power distribution such tree trimming, building of new power plants, installation of new lines, and so forth... all of which are typical causes of power outages.

Without power, none of us would have jobs. Period.

I wish none of this were the case, and sparkys could just toil away doing what they do best... but as long as politics inhibits us from doing what we need to do - which is essential for a modern society - how can we NOT bring it up?

Nonetheless, my apologies if my post crossed the line.

Joe

I can not agree as the topic here is not power production.

The topic is how much power do you use?

You seem to have a very strong view of power production and have tried to infuse that in at least a couple of threads.

I get along fine in a few electrical forums without going political I ask that you try to do the same.

Bob

This is no longer true. New a-Si PV cells have full energy payback in as little as 2 years, and flexible polymer cells are being developed that are even cheaper, both in terms of dollars and energy.

It's still wildly impractical as prime power, though.

* Average Solar Flux for North America: 150 W/m[super]2[/super] -This is representative of the US Northeast and Europe, and accounts for weather.
* Best Average Solar Flux in the US southwest is 240 W/m[super]2[/super]
* Northern US December average 71 W/m[super]2[/super]
* Winter levels will be appx 80% of this value
* US Annual Energy Consumption in 2003: 6.22 ExaWatt-hours (equivilent to 325 billion tons of oil)
* Typical electrically heated household energy use during coldest week of winter: 24,000W
* Typical instantaneous power requirement for a refrigerator: 1200W
* Combined contribution of solar, geothermal and wind in 2003: less than 2%
* Solar Panel Efficiency: 8.25% (commercially mass produced a-Si, the only feasible material at the scale we're talking! See Unisolar whitepaper #1 below.)
* Thermal de-rating of solar panels for US winter weather: 15% for a-Si, 35% for crystalline silicon.
* Typical loss due to dirt, dust, etc: 3%+
* Inverter efficiency: 94%
* Wiring efficiency: 97%
* Transformer efficiency: 95%
* Battery efficiency: 80%

* Energy required to manufacture a-Si panels:120 kWh/m[super]2[/super] (432 MJ/m[super]2[/super]) as a generously conservative estimate. I don't know if this counts mining, refining, transportation, installation, cabling, power conversion, substations, transmission, etc, etc and I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
* Energy required to mount an a-Si panel: appx 120 kWh/m[super]2[/super] (432 MJ/m[super]2[/super])

* Solar energy absorbed annually per m[super]2[/super] in US Southwest desert:
365 days * 24 hours * 240W/m[super]2[/super] = 2,100 kWh

* Solar energy absorbed annually per m[super]2[/super] in US Northeast:
365 days * 24 hours * 150W/m[super]2[/super] = 1,314 kWh

* Losses in conversion, wiring, etc:
.97 * .94 * .97 * .95 * .80 = 32% loss, 67% efficiency

* Break-even point for energy for a-Si Solar Panels and installation in US Southwest desert:
240kWh/m2 / (240W/m2 * 8.25% * 67% * 24 * 365) = 2.1 years

* Break-even point for energy for a-Si Solar Panels and installation in US Northeast:
240kWh /m2 / (150W/m2 * 8.25% * 67% * 24 * 365) = 3.2 years

For this that missed the significance of this, it means spending 2-3x our entire annual energy consumption on solar panel production alone.

If the south-facing roof of a 200m[super]2[/super] (~2000ft[super]2[/super]) typical house in the Arizona desert was covered in a-Si solar panels:
240W/m[super]2[/super] * 100 m[super]2[/super] * 8.25% * 67% = 1300W (about enough to run a refrigerator)

If the south-facing roof of a 200m[super]2[/super] (~2000ft[super]2[/super]) typical house in the US was covered in a-Si solar panels:
150W/m[super]2[/super] * 100 m[super]2[/super] * 8.25% * 67% = 829W (about enough to run a typical PC desktop with 17" CRT monitor). It would take 42 houses like this to provide the energy one house requires for electric heating.

If the south-facing roof of a 200m[super]2[/super] (~2000ft[super]2[/super]) typical house in the US Northeast in winter was covered in a-Si solar panels (assuming no snow):
71W/m[super]2[/super] * 100 m[super]2[/super] * 8.25% * 67% * .85 = 321W (4 houses combined could run a Mr. Coffee). It would take 75 houses like this to provide the energy one house requires for electric heating.

Cost of 8% efficient a-Si solar panel: appx $1000/m[super]2[/super]
Cost of installation: appx $100/m[super]2[/super]
Cost of 10kW inverter: $12000 (For surge. An electric range draws 10kW.)
Cost of storage batteries: $200/kWh
Cost of cabling: appx 1x material cost
Cost of electrical installation: appx 2x electrical material cost

100m[super]2[/super] of solar panels: $100,000
Cost of panel installion: $10,000
Batteries required to store 2 day’s worth of energy at 1300W average: $13,000
Cost of inverter: $12000
Cost of electrical installation: $20,000
Total cost of 1300W Arizona or 564W northeast partially-solar-powered house calculated for above: $155,000.

Area of solar panels in the southwest US desert required to supply US with total electricity demands:
6.22Ewh / (1300W * 24 * 365) = 54,000 km[super]2[/super]

Number house-sized solar panels spread evenly throughout the US required to supply US with total electricity demands:
6.22Ewh / (829W * 24 * 365) = 856 million house-sized panels (compared to 120 million households in the US, which includes aparments and townhouses)- works out to about a quarter acre of solar panels per every family in the US. BUT, that's lopsided as most of that comes from the summer. If we go by straight winter values, it works out to closer to 17 acres of solar panels per family.

US GDP: $ 11.75 trillion
856 million house-sized panels: $158 trillion


Sources: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/solartechnote.html http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/0.4.2_white_paper_2.pdf http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/0.4.2_white_paper_1.pdf http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power


Since we're using very large numbers here:
1,000 Thousand Kilo k
1,000,000 Million Mega M
1,000,000,000 Billion Giga G
1,000,000,000,000 Trillion Tera T
1,000,000,000,000,000 Quadrillion Peta P
1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Quinillion Exa E

* It would literally take a solar panel larger than Wales to supply UK with their annual electrical consuption. And probably require most of Scotland to be turned into hydoelectric resevoirs to feed the grid at night and on rainy/cloudy days.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html
In 2003, the United States generated 3,848 billion kilowatthours (Kwh) of electricity, including 3,691 billion Kwh from the electric power sector plus an additional 157 billion Kwh coming from combined heat and power (CHP) facilities in the commercial and industrial sectors. For the electric power sector, coal-fired plants accounted for 53% of generation, nuclear 21%, natural gas 15%, hydroelectricity 7%, oil 3%, geothermal and "other" 1%. During the first eight months of 2004, electric power generation rose about 2.2% year-over-year.

Natural gas-fired power generation has greatly increased its share of the U.S. power mix over the past few years, from just 9% in 1988 to 18% in 2002, although it fell back in 2003, to 16%, due in large part to higher gas prices during 2003. Investment in coal-fired power generation generally has been less attractive than natural gas in recent years due to relatively high capital costs and longer construction periods. As a result, coal's share in the U.S. power mix has fallen from 57% in 1988 to 51% in 2003. The share of nuclear power generation in the U.S. power mix has remained relatively flat over the past 15 years or so, increasing slightly from 19% in 1988 to 20% in 2003. Oil's share has fallen from 5% in 1988 to 3% in 2003.

On a national level during 2003, the retail price of electricity averaged 7.40 cents per Kwh, up 2.6% from 7.21 cents per Kwh in 2002. Electricity prices in the United States fell every year between 1993 and 1999, but this trend reversed in 2000, 2001, and 2003. For the first eight months of 2004, electricity prices were up 1.7% year-over-year, to 7.57 cents per Kwh.

As of 2002, U.S. net summer electric generating capacity was 905 gigawatts (GW). Of this total, 76% was thermal (35% coal, 19% natural gas, 18% "dual-fired," 4% petroleum), 11% hydro, 11% nuclear, and 2% "other renewables" (geothermal, solar, wind). The amount and geographical distribution of capacity by energy source is a function of, among other things, availability and price of fuels and/or regulations. Capacity by energy source generally shows a geographical pattern such as: significant nuclear capacity in New England, coal in the central U.S., hydroelectric in the Pacific West, and natural-gas-fired capacity in the Coastal South.


the EIA's electricity numbers :

I must take exception to the statement that I've tried to "infuse" my views on power production into threads. All I did was respectully respond to TWO OTHER posts that specifically mentioned solar energy. Now if I went on a rant about solar energy when it wasn't even mentioned, then you'd have a point.

But please tell me how it's NOT political to start a thread comparing US electric consumption versus other countries - the underlying premise being we consume too much power??? That is EXTREMELY political! But apparently you didn't seem to have a problem with that.

I guess certain views are acceptable here, while others aren't (like mine) which is fine, this is a private forum and as moderator you decide who and what stays or goes. But to claim that I was "infusing" something I was not just does not appear genuine, but that is fine.

No need to respond to this aspect of the thread any further... I get it... feel free to delete and/or ban if need be.

Joe

My interest wasn't in saving the world or really even saving any money. I was just thinking about keeping my pool blue in an extended power failure. I can live without AC if the pool is working. The solar to run it is going to be close to what it cost me to build it in the first place.

I am still thinking about this problem but the model doesn't look like it's going to be the normal inverter/battery deal. I am thinking about a DC pump motor running directly off the array now.

IMO, it is not about this board being political, it is about this particular thread, which is about ones power consumption.

The bill from the utility tells me we (two people in an apartment without gas) use just over 1 000 kWh/year. This does not include the hot water and the heating as both of these come from the district heating. (The electricity cost has gone through the roof and is now nearly US$300 per year, all included!)

We use 22,000kWh per year- Family of 4 with two small children, and electric everything (heat, AC, hot water).

That's an average of 2.5kW/10A, 24/7, which is far less than I'd have imagined.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 11-18-2006).]

SteveFehr, I suspect you dropped a decimal point somewhere in your 4:39 post. The power output from a solar array should be on the order of magnitude of 100 watts per square meter--you're an order of magnitude less than that.

No mistake, the numbers I calculate are the average powers you get for an "affordable" a-Si panel once you calculate in all the losses and inefficiencies.

"Peak" output when stated independant of location is meaningless- a supposed 100W panel that makes 100W at noon on a cloudless day at the equator is never going to get even close to that in Maine. And when you time average it across a 24 hour period, it drops even more.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 11-18-2006).]

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 11-18-2006).]

here's a copy of my last bill


Service ID # : 2536582162
Rate Schedule : E1 WB Residential Service
Billing Days : 30 days
Rotating Outage Blk 14B
Meter # P23968
Prior Meter Read 18,748
Current Meter Read 19,915
Difference 1,167
Meter Constant 1
Usage 1,167 KwH

10/05/2006 - 10/31/2006
Electric Charges $169.88
Baseline Quantity 510.30000 Kwh
Baseline Usage 510.30000 Kwh @ $0.11430
101-130% of Baseline 153.09000 Kwh @ $0.12989
131-200% of Baseline 357.21000 Kwh @ $0.22986
201-300% of Baseline 29.70000 Kwh @ $0.32227
Net Charges $169.88
The net charges shown above include the following component(s). Please see
definitions on Page 2 of the bill.
Generation $71.40
Transmission 11.31
Distribution 57.67
Public Purpose Programs 7.39
Nuclear Decommissioning 0.40
Trust Transfer Amount (TTA) 7.18
DWR Bond Charge 5.09
Ongoing CTC 4.85
Energy Cost Recovery Amount 4.59
Taxes
Energy Commission Tax $0.23
Charges
11/01/2006 - 11/03/2006
Electric Charges $27.14
Baseline Quantity 33.90000 Kwh
Baseline Usage 33.90000 Kwh @ $0.11430
101-130% of Baseline 10.17000 Kwh @ $0.12989
131-200% of Baseline 23.73000 Kwh @ $0.22986
201-300% of Baseline 33.90000 Kwh @ $0.32227
Over 300% of Baselin e 15.00000 Kwh @ $0.37070
Net Charges $27.14
The net charges shown above include the following component(s). Please see
definitions on Page 2 of the bill.
Generation $13.89
Transmission 1.25
Distribution 8.73
Public Purpose Programs 0.82
Nuclear Decommissioning 0.04
Trust Transfer Amount (TTA) 0.80
DWR Bond Charge 0.56
Ongoing CTC 0.54
Energy Cost Recovery Amount 0.51


This is about an average bill here ($170)in decent weather... It also says I use 38.9KwH /day

We have an 8 room house (no electric heat) central AC in New England.
We average 10,000KWH per year or about 833KWH per month. It has been fairly consistant over the past 10 years. The price of course has gone from .11 p/kwh in 1993 to .20 in 2006. Nearly double.

We use 1400 KWH/month average.

That includes our house, my shop, and my wife's business - several computers run 24/7.

Heat pump, lectric hot water, electric cooking.

All these electricity bills from round the world seem to have a common factor, that of deliberately obscuring the real price of the product from the consumer. I don't buy a liter of milk at the supermarket and get told the milk is 70 centimes plus 3c for the bottling plant costs, 2c extra because the cost of silage just went up, plus 12c taxes, minus a 2c bonus for buying it on Wednesday afternoon, plus 2c for measuring out a liter, so why the heck do I have to put up with it from the poco?

Alan

Utility regulation... Your tax dollars at work

I gotta love the "Customer Charge" of $21.00 on my bill. Funny how there's no explanation of what that charge is for, although I assume it's the minumum the bill would be outside of any power usage.

Deregulation required the utilities to unbundle their rates. So now you get to see generation charges, transmission charges, fuel charges, etc.
If your lovely State representatives ever unbundle grocerys, you will see feed charges, milking charges, transportation charges, shelf stocking charges,etc.

That lot makes British electricity bills look quite simple -- Just the per-unit rates and associated sub-totals for day/night, then 5% VAT (tax) added on to the total.

Here's my latest bill for your perusal. The calculation on the last sheet is a little more complex than usual because the rates went up (yet again) during the billing period, hence the two sets of figures with estimated meter readings to apportion:

Electricity bill, 1

Electricity bill, 2

Electricity bill, 3

I have to dive in my archieves but i have a look if i can find one of the older WEPB bills from 1988 and the current ones we receive with all the disguises in it.

Privatisation certainly has NOT worked to make it cheaper for the end users.

In the 18 years i live in New Zealand now, the cost of power per kWh has doubled and daily line charges have quadrupled.

My electricity bill breaks down to

The product
Normal rate 0,0765 Euro / kWh = $0.10 taking a euro = us$ 1.30
Cheap rate 0,0450 Euro / kWh = $0.06

Plus-
Poco charges 19.44 Euro / month
Tax. 8% municipal + 4% Departmental, on 80% of pre-taxed totals.
Value Added Tax is then levied at 5.5% of Poco charges, 19.6% on the rest, including the other taxes.
Plus a local ‘contribution’ [ ie tax.], which is also taxed with Value Added Tax.

Last year the bill broke down to, in Euros, to – [ figures rounded to nearest euro ]

Electricity 422 = 2715kWh @ 0.045 + 3923kWh @ 0,0765
Poco charges 233
Taxes, local 63
Contribution 30
TVA 111

Total 859 Euro of which tax + charges = 437 Euro

As you can see, taxes and charges are 51% of the total.

If I apportion the smoke and mirrors to each; 6638 kWh total, cheap rate 2715 kWh = 41% of use

Normal rate = 300 + [ 0.59x 437] = 558E for 3923 units = 0,14 Euro per kWh = $0.18
Cheap rate = 122 + [0.41 x 437] = 301E for 2715 units = 0,11 Euro per kWh. = $0.14


Alan

Single male household, oil heat, electric water heater (300 liters) heating in the night only (low rate):

Winter (October to March)
Day 477 kWh
Night 2191 kWh
makes approx. 15 kWh/day

Summer (April to September)
Day 352 kWh
Night 1859 kWh
makes approx. 12.3 kWh/day

The "Night" rate also applies on weekends when I do all the washing, drying (Tumbler), welding, lathe work, milling etc. I just LOVE to build things

Oh yes, oil heat: about 1700 liters (375 gallons) per calendar year, averaged over the last 12 years.