Here is the situation: A plumber calls you. Over the weekend, some poor soul has had an electrician look at his water heater (nearly new), and the sparky finds $450 worth of stuff to fix, before saying the problem is a bad element, and the guy needs a plumber.

The plumber has called you, as he can find nothing wrong with the water heater.

You get there, and - after a modest amount of checking- that the splices in the LB near the panel have completely degraded. Easy wire pull, wires replaced. All is well.

Now, the customer shows you the bill from the other sparky. A large firm, with many trucks, and a pretty decent reputation. On the invoice, the guy had diagnosed "bad element." He has charged for changing four breakers - for the life of you, you can only see two that MIGHT have been changed. And your bill for actually fixing it is a lot less than what the first guy charged. (Especially when the other guy charged $80 for a $5 breaker!)

So- what do you do?

Honestly? or theoretically?

Honestly, I hand him my invoice, let him see that we got the problem fixed, show him the bad wire, let him feel the hot water. And let him fight it out with the other company.

If he asks an opinion, tell him the truth. They are a large company, offer good service, etc. However, some of their technicians are more qualified than others. I am a licensed (assuming you are) electrical contractor with x yrs experience, etc.

then I would tell him I made a mistake on the invoice and triple it

Theoretically? I don't know.

I would tell the customer that he should make a complaint to the Better Buisness Buearu. If possible, I would try and give the customer a bit of a break on the bill as well. The customer will remember that the next time they need work done.

[This message has been edited by Luketrician (edited 10-10-2006).]

bad language post

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 10-11-2006).]

What really makes me think is this:

Did the other guy overcharge because he honestly thought all of that was neccesary to find the problem or is it so high because he works on commision and saw a sucker?

Honesty seems to take people farther than overcharing will anyday.

But on the flip side if the market will bear the price and the homeowner is willing to pay without a second opinion who is wrong?

Where was I again

Roger,

Three things:


1. The one thing the BBB can do is start a history on the contractor. Put yourself in the customer shoes, I for one would'nt just let it go without taking some action.

2. Giving this person a slight break on my bill is a gamble I am willing to take. 50$ is still a good bit of money for some, heck even for me! This person may have friends or neighbors that may need work done in the future. Doing this just betters my odds that they WILL remeber me.

3. I never bash another contractor for honest mistakes. It is hard to believe, that it was a 'mistake' installing breakers and an element that was apparently not needed.


Overall this is just my two cents. I respect your views Roger and understand that we all have different ways of doing buisness. Thank you for your views on my initiall post.

No break for the HO.

I'm not going to badmoutn another EC for an honest mistake but if the guys a total hack then the HO's going to know about it.

Theres no way that the above scenario was just a mistake, he checked power at the WH, realized a leg was missing then starts changing breakers and leaves without the problem solved. After noticing one leg was missing at the WH he should have checked the breaker, he wouldve noticed the breaker is fine, the only thing that then leaves is an open splice or a cut wire.This is very basic troubleshooting, my apprentices would catch hell for doing this.

In my opinion, the first company there tried to pass off a green helper as an electrician.

"bill for it, and make sure that you show the customer what YOU did right for them."

I agree, bill as you would any customer, your vendors, and suppliers are not going to
give you a bit of a break on the bill, and your cost, for responding to the job are still there.

Luke, the post wasn't mine, I just edited an abbreviation of a word that was improper for ECN.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 10-10-2006).]

I just think some of you are too funny..

If it was my business, you bet your butt I am helping that consumer.

Plain and simple fraud.


You bet they will, and better yet, they will remmember that guy that ripped them off.
And they will tell an average of 13 other people too.

Charge as normal.

I don't have a problem giving a discount or giving it for free even, but I do have a problem with doing that and then trying to convince yourself it is a good business move. If you want to discount do it out of compassion or sympathy. I have a real problem with the idea that "I'll give this guy a break, and I'll get more work." You might get more work, but it will be more discounted work. The best thing I ever did was raise my rates. If you charge a good rate and get more work and referals, they are already sold at the higher rate.

Kind of in the same vein.... also avoid working with and for people who want to be "Buddies" or at least resist being their "buddy." keep it professional, you don't need anymore "friends" who you help out, and then help out their buddies.

But back on topic..... there is a difference between overlooking a fellow electrician/competitor who made a mistake, and one who is clearly unqualified. Mahlere, how could you think of suggesting the company who facilitated this transaction offered good service. For that matter the pizza delivery boy probably could have offered better service (quicker response and cheaper bill). I'd give him my opinion..... If this tech worked for me I'd either fire him, or get him back to running parts (as long as he's still making $10 per hour).

Oh, sorry about that Roger. Hope I haven't offended you or anyone else.

long winded angry post.

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 10-11-2006).]

Mahlere, I would like to say thanks. Hearing other points of view will help me in the future from being to generous and more carefull when it comes to having to deal with an electrical mess that someone else has left. Whether it be a honest mistake or not.

luke,

i'm not sure how to take that post, it's hard to convey things on this internet.

But I hope you realize that I am advocating doing right by the customer. Just not taking a loss because another company did them wrong. If they didn't want to pay for the right fix, they should have called the 1st company back on a warranty call.

The only thing I would add, is that I would call the owner of the 1st company and give him a heads up. If it's a larger company, he may not even know what happened. (tech, office staff and manager may know, but not necessarily the owner)

All I did is make a post about consumers remmembering contractors who are honest, and you make it into another one of your personal attacks.

You need help.

rubbish post

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 10-11-2006).]

Her's a twist: would anyone even consider, for a second, letting the other contractor know their guy dropped the ball?

John, he already knows, he doesn't care, he got $450.

Why do you think he has to do so much advertising?

see post below

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 10-10-2006).]

Hmm now there's a thought Reno. Btw Mahlere, with my last post, It was a positive one.

luke, thought so, but....

reno, call the owner, he may not know. I don't know what happens on every job we do everyday. I couldn't possibly keep track of it all.

Heck, the tech might honestly have not known the problem (admittedly, he should not have been sent out to do the job, but we all know the problem getting qualified help) If the homeowner didn't call to complain, then they still assume it was a bad element and a plumber fixed it.

If it was a small, one man shop, i wouldn't call unless I personally knew the guy. But a larger shop, definately.

Picture this conversation:
Boss - "How did that water heater service call go at Mr. Smiths"
Tech - "Good, found a couple of bad breakers that we replaced, but the main problem was a bad element. I told him to call a plumber"
Boss - "ok"

Edited after E57's post.
At this point the conversation is over, unless the HO or the 2nd contractor contacts the 1st company and tells them what they found. But, without the phone call, that is the entire conversation.

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 10-11-2006).]

Picture this conversation:
Boss - "How did that water heater service call go at Mr. Smiths"
Tech - "Good, found a couple of bad breakers that we replaced, but the main problem was a bad element. I told him to call a plumber"
Boss - "ok"

I'll add this:
Boss - "ok - well the customer called the plumber, who said there was nothing wrong, and who also called another electrician who found some bad splices and fixed it. - Now they want thier money back."
[dumbfounded look]
Boss - "How did you determine it was the water heater? Or did you? I went by there today and they handed me two burned splices and a picture of where they came from, with a bill from the Plumber and Electrician who fixed it."

Reno I would definately charge for it! (Technicaly since the Plumber called you, I would bill him, and he can tack it on to his.) I too have been in the same situation many times. I don't know what your bill was, or if they are refusing to pay? But I am always sceptical walking in as the "second Electrician", and on occasion the third.... So this is one time I don't mind, and would preffer the customer to look over my shoulder - and I'll explain as I go. Just to avoid finger-pointing. If I find something that can be visable, I take a picture of it now. And detail the Job Describtion to the letter. In this case would go just like this:

"Water Heater Non-operational, Voltage at Branch Breaker OK, Voltage deficiant at equipment junction. Splices found in LB next to panel in poor condition. New conductors pulled. Water Heater operation confirmed."

You'll be surprised how fast a copy of that makes it to the other company, along with the bill from the Plumber. You may not have to call them, they might call you...

I would call the other EC.The boss should know, regardless of the size of their shop! I wouldn't slam him to the costomer either. Say something like "honest mistake, mabey he overlooked something".
My boss has taken some off of an invoice for a unsatisfied customer before. Especially if they're worth it.

Damned if this doesn't sound like a textbook question from the ethics section of PE exam! If I was giving a textbook answer, I'd confront the contractor first, and notify his supervisor if I didn't get a satisfactory response. And in an extreme case, recommend the client take him to small claims court.

Way easier just not to do anything.

I didn't even think of calling the other contractor. That's the best way to handle it. If it was my guy screwing up like that I'd want to know too. That's the what to do...

The what to say to the homeowner..... You don't have to make up excuses and try to justify what the other guy did or that it was an "honest mistake". If their tech truly didn't know what he was doing (which sounds like the case to me) then either the boss is dishonestly sending out a guy to a call calling him an electrician, or the tech is dishonestly selling himself to the boss as qualified. I'd avoid bashing the guy, but that doesn't leave the other option as talk him up. When in doubt, less said is often better.

I'll let this run for a bit, then tell you what I decided to do at the time.

This is not, in any way, saying I had the perfect answer. Indeed, I need you guys to help me keep on course.

I also think discussing this will help us be ready for the next time...

What would I do?

Nothing.

Calling the other electrician to let him know his guy did not find the problem is really none of my business. It's the other guys business. Only unless I knew of the other electrician might I call him and let him know one of his guys screwed up and I got a call to see if I could correct the problem. Getting into another contractors business is IMO a bad idea.

shock, i used to agree with you. then i wondered why plumbers all did better than us. I realized it's because they talked to eachother and didn't look to screw eachother as much.

just a thought.

Very good rule of thumb Jps1006, "when in doubt, less said is often better". What an educational post this has been for me. Thanks guys!

Our SOP in these cases is to tell the customer; Here is what WE did and your problems has been repaired. I cannot tell you what "the other guy" did or answer for him. We don't bad mouth other EC's because most of the time we don't have ALL of the facts.

I take my car in for a squeeky brakes, the mechanic gives me a bill for $450, and says he installed new plugs, new air filter, and new wires, "cause" they needed them. Then tells me he doesn't fix brakes, and I should take it to a brake shop.
I didn't ask him to put a new air cleaner in, I just asked him to fix my squeek.

Would I pay him? No.
Did he try to pull a fast one on me? Yup.


This sounds like the same thing that happened to this guy.

This guy should not of paid a dime to the first EC.

I would of told him how to get his money back.
And I call that policing our own ranks, to weed out the crooks, and make our image better.

But like Lear stated, we don't know all the facts.

that's not policing our own. That's running off half cocked and starting a storm that doesn't need to be started.

calling the owner of the other company and letting him know what's going on, and giving him the opportunity to make it right, is policing our own.

especially, if like Reno said, the company has a pretty good reputation. Give them a chance to resolve it before you crucify them.

Once you have employees, you quickly realize that you don't know everything that happens. And it's nice when someone gives you a heads up instead of just bashing you. As an industry why are we such *******s to eachother? Why are we always looking for a way to pull down another contractor?

We already have the general public thinking we are overcharging thieves, so we help them by cannibalizing eachother? Just doesn't make sense.

I am by no means condoning what contractor one did, I'm just saying give them first crack at fixing the mess they created, before Mr. Burns releases the hounds on them.


Edited to add:
We do a lot of repeat and referral work. But over the years, I've gotten more referrals from my fellow contractors than can ever be traced to any customer. A customer may use us 4-5 times in a 5 yr span, and refer us to 2-3 people, and maybe they will refer us, etc. So if you go out, we can possibly attribute 10-15 jobs in repeats and referrals to one customer in a 5 yr period.

We get 20-30 referrals a year from a single contractor in a year. Overall, we probably get about 120 referrals a year from other EC's. Some of these EC are larger commercial guys that don't do residential, some are our direct competition. But they can't handle the job, they send them to us.

So, you definately need to weigh a customers story (of which you only know 1 of the 3 sides of the story) with good relationships with your fellow contractors.

Now, if contractor #1 had a reputation of being horrible, ripping off customers, screwing up, etc, then all bets are off. But that's not the case according to Reno's OP.

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 10-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 10-12-2006).]

Here's my "guess", based on John's "limited info", and his "timely" post about calling the guy question.

John calls him, and has a friendly conversation with the owner, and the owner knows nothing about what happened. All he knpows is the tech was sent out, and the tech made it back.

Owner has a talk to tech, finds out the whole story, and contatcs the customer with an appology, and credits his bill for the messup and inconvinence.

John gets a Kudos from both the other owner and the man he helped out, and the plumber.

But there is a reason John is keeping us "hanging" in suspence....

I hope he tells us.

dangit reno, spill the beans.

Personally,

I'd bill the customer. I'd discuss the situation with the HO and explain that while you don't have all the facts, the other company just didn't quite manage to solve the complete problem.

Then I'd explain that if it were one of my Tech's, I'd like to hear from the customer to know about the issue. If it is a training issue for my Tech, I can't fix what I don't realize is wrong.

Then, I would leave it to the client to contact the company who sent out the other Tech.

If it were my company, when the customer called to explain what happened, I would probably offer to pay some if not all of the expenses of the electrician at least and possibly the plumber, if I felt the customer was being truthful and reasonable in this matter. (I might even ask for the telephone number of the electrician who finally fixed the problem). So that I could verify the facts and improve my Tech's abilities.

If I were the customer, I'd appreciate the time of the electrician who fixed the problem and the advice to call the first contractor.

If I were the first contractor, I'd appreciate the opportunity to improve my business through obviously required training. And I would also try my darndest to take care of the customer who has had such a bad experience.

Just my thoughts....

Reno (John),
If this company really cares about it's customers, they would not dick them around like that.
Having a reputation is one thing, but you do not want a reputation from other trades-people that they don't know what they are doing.
Word of mouth, it works both ways.

dangit reno, what did you do. I have a bet with one of my salesmen that you called the other EC and talked with him. My salesman says that you bagged the other EC to the customer, since that's what we normally do to eachother. (btw, this salesman works at one my local supply houses, he deals with different EC's all day long)

But, i want him to buy me that lunch.

spill it already.

As I said earlier, I make no claims that my response was perfect.

As soon as I found the real problem, and having some issues with what I had been told to that point, the customer presented me with the other guys' (TOG's) invoice. That made me react so strongly I went into "automatic mode" as soon as I got back to my truck. (No point putting on a show for the customer).

The invoice diagnosed a bad element. Then, the 'fix' was to replace one 2-pole breaker, and three 1-pole breakers. Not only was the element perfectly good (in a new water heater), but I had difficulty spotting any new breakers in the panel. There was also a scorch mark, and a burnt wiring smell, in the panel that I could not explain; I wasn't getting the whole picture.

So I "reacted" without thinking. Knowing the shop had a good rep, and considering that the bos never has any idea what happens in the fiels -he can't be everywhere- I thought he would be interested. If, as I suspected, his guy was either a crook, or incompetent, I wanted him to see things for himself.

I called, and was very polite. I made clear that I was "not at war," but thought he should come and see before I tore it all apart.

He came, and was quite professional. He didn't really seem convinced, however, until he saw the fried wires himself. After that, he had no problem recognising that just maybe two breakers had been changed - not four.

He then explained to the customer that he would be making a major reduction to the invoice, only charging for the service call. A $450 bill, reduced to $95. The customer was thrilled.

What happend back at the shop, only the shadow knows....

It looks as if my response was pretty close to what many of you have suggested.

As for my price, well, I sharpened my pencil. This poor guy had already been screwed by whoever had replaced the water heater, as well as the other EC.
Though it would not surprise me at all, if the property owner -who has several such rental homes- calls me in the future!

reno,

thanks for the lunch. I personally think you did the right thing. too many guys would have just sandbagged the other EC without giving them a chance to fix it.

As for sharpening your pencil. 2 things, if you still made money (and didn't take a loss to make up for the other companies mistake) no problem. and B, you left out the part that this was for a property management company, and not just an average homeowner.

But for what it's worth, kudos to you.

PS- did I have the right company in my email?

I usually stick up for other ECs.

For good sport I spend my time trashing handymen & carpenters about their electrical work. The fact is they're some of my favorite people because I get paid for playing garbage-can-basketball with their work.

Dave