ECN Forum
Posted By: Trumpy Handymen - 07/26/06 05:38 AM
After having spoken to not only a few people in NZ here, but a few people in the US, why are Handymen allowed to do the work of an Electrician, without having served the time that we did?.
What we seem to have here, is an under-class of incompetent workers, that profess to be what they are not.
If you are not good enough to be an employee or an owner of an electrical company, stay away and let the men do the work.
This sort of culture, is bringing down everyone in respect to prices and the quality of work as well, as these people are being seen as Electricians.
Your thoughts?.
Posted By: iwire Re: Handymen - 07/26/06 06:21 AM
The US does not have nation wide electrical licensing.

Licensing is left up to the local governments and many areas still have no licensing requirements.
Posted By: Sixer Re: Handymen - 07/26/06 06:46 AM
We're lucky here. Our inspector backs us up by stopping any further work on jobs when
unqualified workers either get caught or turned in for doing wiring. If they don't comply, he will (and has done many times) order a disconnect of the power until a certified contractor takes responsibility for it.

The public needs more education as to who can or cannot legally do wiring and how to check their qualifications. Unfortunately there are far too many people who will intentionally sacrifice safety in order to save a buck. There are just as many others who will, out of ignorance, hire someone who has deceptively advertised their credentials.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Handymen - 07/26/06 07:04 AM
Randy (Sixer), while I agree with you about informing the public and their need to check the qualifications of people working in their house.
People want the cheapest job as they can get, and if the Handyman says that their work is safe, they like that, who really cares if the house is on fire in a day or two?, the Handyman has made his money.
No wonder legitimate trades-people can't make a living.
They have some sort of a guarantee(sp?) on their work, try and find your Handyman. [Linked Image]
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Handymen - 07/26/06 11:07 AM
We've got a lot of "Handymen" around here. I'm sure there are quite a few who are excellent at what they do, but for the most part, they seem to be unemployed low-skill people who pimp themselves out for any odd job they can get to unfortunate souls that don't know any better. No permits, no inspections, inexpensive and shoddy work.

I'm pretty sure there were quite a few who helped the previous owner remodel my house. The saddest thing is, they're proud of it! I've had guys stop by to say hi (fishing for work, I think) and proudly announce they did X or Y on my house, despite X and Y clearly being done incompetantly- and these are the supposed "professionals". At least the power was done right- the previous owner was a liscensed electrician and electrical inspector.

I live in Chesapeake Virginia, BTW.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-26-2006).]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Handymen - 07/26/06 11:46 AM
Handymen, by definition, usually live just up the street. The word 'handy' has nothing to do with their skills or lack of them, only location. The truth is, a lot of folks feel intimidated and fearful of the costs incurred by hiring a professional man, what with taxes, callout fees and high grade materials and tools not 'borrowed' from the nearest project. Looking at the many pics posted here on ECN, some folks seem to live in horrid detritus-strewn shacks anyway, so what difference is a bit of dodgy wiring going to make. Lets face it, a skilled guy was never going to get the work anyway, so why worry?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Handymen - 07/26/06 10:38 PM
Trumpy:
Here in New Jersey, we have state lic for electricians, plumbers, and recently 'home improvement contractors', along with a myrid list of other lic. professionals.

The State Board of Examiners (Elec & Plumb) take a strong stick to those that they CATCH. Unfortunatley, few.

Yes, we have 'meat cutters', we have handymen, we have 'sparkies' that moonlight/sidework. We have homeowner DIY's, we have neighbors, & Lord knows who else.

As an AHJ, I can say, it's tough to catch them. Drive past a strip mall & notice NEON that wasn't there the day before. Go in & look at it (don't touch), talk to the owner.. 'Oh, the "sign guy" put it up last night' ask about permit (Ha Ha) then write a $500 fine.

As to the resi work, it goes on all the time. Usually it shows up before a real estate closing or CCO inspection.

I'm glad (??) we're not the only place this happens.

John

PS: Morticians are State Lic.; anyone know of a 'handyman' enbalmer for a bargain price?

[This message has been edited by HotLine1 (edited 07-26-2006).]
Posted By: e57 Re: Handymen - 07/26/06 11:39 PM
Oh who said it? (Some type of oil guy... Someone brought it up one day here, and I saved it.)

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
-Red Adair

Maybe put it on the back of a buisiness card....

Or make it really in the best interest to hire a professional tradesman, lobby for B&P code that says if you're not licensed in a trade, you have to licensed as a hack, make the cost of this new class of license $50, and have "Proffessional HACK" in font twice the size of your name on any document or advertizing, with a fine of $50K for each offense found. A stack of cards could cost ya $1M. Make anyone who hires an unlicensed hack liable for $50K! Do ad campaign that says, "If you're gonna hire a "hack", you cheap SOB, make sure he's a professionaly licensed one, or you get fined $50,000!" Of course you would have to back that up with jack-booted goose-stepping enforcement, to really scare the day-lights out of people. [Linked Image]

Think of all the lowered taxes because of all the hacks out there...

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 07-26-2006).]
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Handymen - 07/27/06 12:14 AM
We have a local ordinance that limits electrical work by those who are not electricians to "Maintenance" or what's incidental to their job...and that is further restricted to 10 ft. of wire.

In other words, the maintenance guy can change a receptacle, and the HVAC guy can connect the whip.... but you need a sparky to run the circuit.

Again, based upon our traditions of rugged individualism, limited government, and personal freedom, a man may do most anything in his own home.. subject to the same rules, permits, and inspections as anyone else.
Posted By: giddonah Re: Handymen - 07/27/06 01:24 AM
I'm almost afraid to admit this because of how much all of you have gone through. In Orange County, NY, there are no license requirements outside of city limits. There are three cities in the county. I'm a General Contractor. How? I bought the insurance that says I can say I am. I'll pause as some of you get back on your chairs. I don't say this to brag, just to let you know how it works here. I know the code, and have my work inspected. I haven't been red tagged yet. I am astounded at what I find though. 20A breakers feeding #14 and 15A switches and outlets. Flying splices everywhere. Junction boxes without covers are normal. I could probably knock on the door of any house in the county and find a picture for the violation forum. It's a miracle the county just doesn't burst into flames. Take my last final inspection. The inspector left his motor running in the driveway. He popped the GFI in the bathroom I added and took off. It's a bit of a mess out here, but at least I can say I'm leaving things much better off than I find them.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Handymen - 07/27/06 10:24 PM
OK, a GC with Insurance that gets 'inspections' is an exception.

How 'involved' with electrical work do you get??

Orange County issues Electrical Permits?

Do you sub licensed electricians when you work in the three cities??

Please don't think I'm bashing you, I'm curious. From what you stated, you would not fall into "handyman" by my definitions.

John
Posted By: giddonah Re: Handymen - 07/28/06 02:40 AM
No offense taken. I do renovations and remodeling mostly, but would do complete installs on new construction if I could get the job. The permits are handled by the individual towns and villages. Find out what town they live in, call the building dept. Show them proof of insurance, give them a drawing of what I plan on doing. I bid a job for a 1600sq. ft. commercial buildout where I had a licensed electrician bid the electrical. Didn't get the job though, two guys bid half what I did. Just about what materials would have cost me in fact.

I hesitate when people ask me to classify myself. I'm not a diy by any stretch. I'm not a hack, but I'm also not a licensed electrician. Where you guys would recite the code for a problem, I have to go look it up. Following Trumpy's question though, I fall into the group that are "allowed to do the work of an Electrician, without having served the time we did?". But this is exactly why I like it this way. I know enough electrical to do residential, and I didn't have to dig ditches for a few years. I don't pretend that this is a substitute for an aprentice program, but I did study physics in college. Not your typical handyman, but not a licensed electrician either.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Handymen - 07/28/06 11:14 AM
Legally in Austria no one without a sufficient education (apprenticeship or technical school) is allowed to touch any live parts, i.e. do anything beyond changing light bulbs, and no one without a master's license is allowed to charge money for his work.
That's the theory. Reality looks different... with all the hack jobs from colleagues I've seen I can understand why most people don't really trust pros either and don't see a problem in hiring handymen. I'm just ripping out a whole mess done by professionals, melted wires, wrong colors, way too much bare copper...
Posted By: mikesh Re: Handymen - 07/28/06 08:19 PM
beyond changing light bulbs anyone doing any type of electrical work in British Columia must have some sort of trade qualification related to the type of work they do. An electrician covers all the sub clasifications like communications, alarm installer, sign and light fixture installer, entertainment, etc.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Handymen - 07/28/06 08:41 PM
Unfortunately, I have seen better work done by handy men, than by the hacks working for most of the electrical outfits in my neck of the woods.

Someday(sigh), PA will go to a license. And hopefully they will require the techs to hold licenses rather than just the owner. This would put alot of hacks out of business, but would benefit the consumers and public by leaps and bounds.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Handymen - 07/28/06 08:52 PM
So long as they know what to do, I don't have a problem with it. I mean, lets face it, it doesn't take a genius OR an encylopedic knowledge of the codes to wire up a receptacle or a light- the electrical section of the IRC is short enough that it can be read in half an hour and covers pretty much everything a handyman type will be called upon to do.

Problem is that most can't be bothered to pay $70 for a copy of IRC, and are too often coerced into doing illegal stuff the homeowner insists upon. If they did know the code and point it out to the homeowners when they want to do something illegal, we wouldn't be seeing problems like we do...

Pros, too, really. I haven't met a framer, plasterer or roofer yet who's read the codes. They talk the talk and insist they know the "right" way to do it, but when challenged, they really have no idea, just that they've always done it that way and every other way must be wrong. It's scary...

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-28-2006).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Handymen - 07/28/06 09:27 PM
Quote
I mean, lets face it, it doesn't take a genius OR an encylopedic knowledge of the codes to wire up a receptacle or a light-

You might think that.....until you swing by the violation photos.

Sure many can do fine, more know just enough to make it work but have safety issues they do not even realize.

By the way....thanks for the compliment. [Linked Image]
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 01:18 AM
My nephew Joey is of the opinion that "it ain't rocket science." Of course, Joey has never seen the inside of any rockets fancier then "Roman candles," so he doesn't know that rocket were useless fireworks, until plumbers and electricians made them useful!

Joey is getting quite a following in this town... a following of AHJ's, who continue to marvel at his resoursefullness in finding ways to violate ever more codes.

The point is, that while it may not ne so hard to twist a wire nut, or bang in a nail.... thousands of 'little' things add up into making 'large' things. Tradesmen of all types can tell tales of messes that would have never happened, if only the guy who did the work had followed a few simple trade practices...

Nor is "education", by tiself, any guarantor of competence. Some of out biggest 'horror stories' involve degreed professionals who assumed they could 'figure it out themselves.'
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 02:55 AM
I think this thread from the Violations forum is an excellent example of the incompetant installations we're talking about:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000996.html

Looking at that, any of us can rattle off at least a half dozen codes he violated. Some of these would have been obvious to anyone with half a head on their shoulders- the whole can wiring, for instance. But, again, there is nothing complex here, just some lights and receptacles. It doesn't take a 5 year apprenticeship to do the kind of work this guy attempted- anyone who had taken a half hour to read the IRC's residential electrical section should easily have been able to do this correctly, including this guy. Might not have been pretty, but would be safe and legal.
Posted By: andy1959 Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 06:11 AM
After many years working the chemical plants here the only reqirement to be an electrician there was to be certified.or to have a craft performance evaluation.then after leaving the plant i found that the only requirment here to be a master electrician is to simply pass the test . this in itself is insane............worst of all is having to clean up the aftermath of a "handymans" work....here actualy without a license.....a permit can be pulled by the home owner or owner of the property with no questions asked as long as the fee was paid...and call me what you will.........a tattletale or whatever. i will and have reported illegal practices. and will continue to do so..... this is my livelyhood.......this puts beans on my table
let those handymen pay their dues as did we all.....if this post offends anyone i apologise for that but ill make no apologies for the way i feel on this subject.
thanks and good luck
Posted By: iwire Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 10:50 AM
Quote
It doesn't take a 5 year apprenticeship to do the kind of work this guy attempted- anyone who had taken a half hour to read the IRC's residential electrical section should easily have been able to do this correctly, including this guy.

I can not disagree more with that.

You can not read a code book and learn how to wire.

The code does not tell you what to buy, how to use it, how to install it or how to layout the work.

The reason professionals of any trade can alway spot DIY work is because even if the DIY work meets code they do not follow accepted trade practices or procedures.

Now do I think electric work is 'rocket science'?

Heck no!

However no one can do any task well without some experience.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-29-2006).]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 11:49 AM
'Rocket science' debunked:

Time of flight = 2V sin á /g

Range = VxV sin 2á/g

g = 32.2 ft/sec/sec
á = initial launch angle.
V= velocity.

What's brainbending about that?


Alan
Posted By: mahlere Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 12:27 PM
you can easily compare being an electrician to being a doctor. The difference is, in a human body, all the parts are in the same place. If something is missing, you know the problem. In electrical, the parts are never in the same place. So in reality, fixing an electrical issue is more difficult than being a doctor. We should all get a raise.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 01:51 PM
They both fix your hz.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 01:51 PM
Quote
The reason professionals of any trade can alway spot DIY work is because even if the DIY work meets code they do not follow accepted trade practices or procedures.
It's easy to tell DIY framing from professional new construction, too. If you put a level and a square on the wall and it's square and plumb, it's DIY!
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 02:28 PM
I don't know how many times I have said, or read on this forum....."THE NEC (Code) IS NOT A DESIGN TOOL".

You can read the 'Code' an hopefully learn the minimum and maximum limitations of items, and the 'spacing', and the methods of support, etc., BUT that's not a 'HOW TO'.

No, I'm not a rocket scientist, nor am I an Engineer, I'm a Electrician/Contractor/Inspector and Instructor.
Posted By: iwire Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 02:35 PM
Quote
It's easy to tell DIY framing from professional new construction, too. If you put a level and a square on the wall and it's square and plumb, it's DIY!

Don't count on it.

We just can't make general statements about peoples ability's.

There are bad 'Professionals' and great DIYs.

This ain't news.
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 05:36 PM
Quote
'Rocket science' debunked:

...

What's brainbending about that?

Well, don't forget that, as you burn fuel, the mass of the entire rocket decreases. That makes it easier for the rocket's engine to push faster what's left. Which means you need to know how to work calculus type math, something it seems you have to be a rocket scientist to get right... [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by wa2ise (edited 07-29-2006).]
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 05:41 PM
Rocket Science?

Does this have to do with the missle knowing where it is, by knowing where it isn't?

Where it was, by knowing where it wasn't?

That is some complex stuff.....
Posted By: LK Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 06:13 PM
giddonah,

I understand, there are many areas where you may not be required to obtain a license, however even in these areas, doing electrical work, without having liability insurance which covers electrical contracting, would put you or your company at risk, back in the 80's there was a GC that did his own wiring, during construction, the homes foundation was destroyed from a neighbors pool colapse, no fire, or no electrical problems, the insurance company underwriters, found the GC's policy did not cover him doing electrical work, he had protection if he subed the work, but not if he did the work, result was he suffered a large loss, it gave the insurance company a way out!, so be sure you are covered, when doing other trades.


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 07-29-2006).]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Handymen - 07/29/06 06:15 PM
wA2; OK for short flights though!

Dateline: April 1945.

Von Braun: Ein bit more dV unt ein bit less dT............FIRE!

whooossssSSSHHHHHHHHH!

BOOM!

Pa, (sipping his tea), : "Missed."

Alan
Posted By: u2slow Re: Handymen - 07/31/06 01:26 AM
Quote
beyond changing light bulbs anyone doing any type of electrical work in British Columia must have some sort of trade qualification related to the type of work they do.

Don't forget the non-apprentice 'helpers' that are now permitted.
Posted By: giddonah Re: Handymen - 07/31/06 04:19 AM
Thanks for the head's up LK. I'm covered for everything except excavation and roofing jobs.
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