Okay im doing a 200 amp service change.
(1)Does my ground have go from the panel to the main water line then to my ground rod or can i save some money and start with the ground rod first ? Considering prices are so high for coppper i dont want to back track my ground and use another 50 ft...

Did you bid too low?.

Don't you run a seperate ground from the panel to each? You only need #6 to the rod, and you need #4 for the waterpipe.

I totally agree with je1ff. #6 wire to the ground rods and # 4 to the water pipe with proper clamps to jump the meter. Have never seen it done any other way. Years ago they just ran it to the water meter but not today.

Where 2 rods are required, would it be NEC compliant to run 2 GEC's from the main bus, one to each rod?

You can run a propper sized (largest required for the sevice) GEC to the first electrode and use jumpers to bond all the rest together.



Although it is okay to run a seperate GEC to each GE it is not necessary, see 250.50

Roger

Nice drawing Roger. May I add the word "Interior" to the blue colored note? 250.52

[This message has been edited by macmikeman (edited 06-01-2006).]

For what it's worth our local POCO requires a separate GEC to each rod.

Bill

Thanks Mike, but I can't take the credit, the drawing is out of the handbook.

As Bill points out, sometimes there are rules outside of the NEC or local electrical codes that we must follow.

Roger

I tend to disagree with the handbook drawing in this instance. The last sentance of 250.53(D)(2) states that a supplemental electrode must be bonded to:
1) The GEC,
2) The service nuetral,
3) The service conduit, or
4) A grounded service enclosure.

One of the electrodes in the handbook drawing MUST be called a supplement, and bonding the supplemntal electrode to the water pipe is not one of the 4 options listed above, as per 250.53(D)(2).

Dragon, the direct answer is that you may run to the rod first, as long as the entire run is sized for the largest wire size needed.

[This message has been edited by Larry Fine (edited 06-01-2006).]

Ryan, the actual wording is "shall be permitted" not "must be"


Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 06-01-2006).]

[toe-mae-toe] [tuh-ma-toe]

okay ...but doesnt the ground need to be one continous run with no splices...currently i used 4 awg armored ground for the whole run

[This message has been edited by drgnz23 (edited 06-02-2006).]

drgnz23,
no, it doesn't as pertaining to the whole GES.


The Grounding Electrode Conductor must be continuous, (see the GEC in the diagram above) there are some exceptons though, see 250.64(C)

Notice in the graphic below from Mike Holts' Training Material that after the GEC (from panel to water pipe) all others are correctly called jumpers.




Another point of interest is 250.64(F)

Shocking, where your pronunciation of mater may be different than mine, they refer to the same thing.

However, "Shall be Permitted" does not have the same meaning as "Must" or "Shall be".

"Shall be Permitted" is allowing you to do something whereas "Must" and "Shall be" would be instructing or ordering you to do something.

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 06-02-2006).]

Roger,
I'll buy that. Thanks

Ryan

well boys it is up to the inspector....I failed for splices on my ground rod. He wants one continuos run..

Drgnz23:

Did you put two (2) conductors under one (1) acorn clamp??? Acorns are only 'approved' for one conductor! Most guys install the second acorn when they mess-up,

John

What did he reference for his reasoning?

Ask him why he thinks his way is better than those who spend countless hours of their lives participating in the code making process?

I would like to know, so please ask him to visit this thread and explain to us the next time you see him.

I won't hold my breath though.

Roger

Although, if John's assumption is correct, forget my post above.

Roger

no. i used two separate ground clamps. Im not to sure what his reasoning is but I wasnt there when the inspector passed by. I had a feeling when i was cutting the ground that i might be screwing myself. So now i have to crawl back under the house and try to get maybe about five feet of slack out. (which is nearly impossible) So i might have to re run it... and i dont think i messed up i just figured it looked cleaner, but i guess this guy didnt want clean

[This message has been edited by drgnz23 (edited 06-07-2006).]

OK, in addition to Roger, I also would like to know what the "problem" was. For a 'legal' violation (red sticker) here in NJ, an NEC Article has to be cited. Not saying that all AHJ's (including me) do that all the time, however most will provide.

Roger:
BTW, my 'assumption' is one that's on the 'usual/common' list.

John

he posted "No splice to cold water bond"....so i went back and repulled a new piece .. WELL SEE WHAT HAPPENS NOW

OK, this may be beating a dead horse now, but....

"he posted "No splice to cold water bond"....

OK, that's a very tough violation! Nothing to do with grd rods? Did/does he mean the conductor to the 'street side' of the water meter/water main??? Is it the jumper over the water meter?? The jumper at the water heater?? I'm confused!

John