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Footing grounds & Grd rods

Posted By: NJ Pat

Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/17/06 09:08 PM

Gentlemen I have been reading everyone's comments for a few years now but finally broke down to post a question to seek your input on a job.

My local inspector has required me to tie a new service ground into the rebar of the footings of the addition I am doing. My questions is with a 200A 120/240V service do I still need the ground rods or does the connection to the footings offset the need. I was intending on still adding the rods but then I questioned myself if I would be creating a bigger problem by doing so. Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks
Pat
Posted By: NJ Pat

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/17/06 09:29 PM

I just realized I typed "gentlemen" I don't want to offend the ladies out there, so I apologize.
Posted By: VAElec

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/17/06 09:32 PM

The bonding of the rebar (also known as a Ufer ground) has become required in my area as an additional bond for a service. Ground bars, cold water, building steel (if present), rebar (if present), etc.

"http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm" for more info on Ufer grounds. This was the first site I hit following a quick search. I think it's interesting.
Posted By: HotLine1

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/17/06 09:39 PM

NJ PAT:

Welcome to ECN, from one Jersey Guy to another. You're really close to home!!

OK, with a ufer ground, you DO NOT need rods.
In plain english, IF you have access to footing rebar, you have to install a ufer (#4 Cu)

Water pipes still require bonding, water heater & water meter jumpers, and building steel, if avail.

John

PS: Any more "Jersey Guys" lurking in the backround????
Posted By: Roger

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/17/06 10:36 PM

NJ Pat, let me join John in welcoming you to the forum.

Now that you have broken the ice I hope you continue to participate [Linked Image]

Roger
Posted By: nov

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/17/06 10:53 PM

Have not posted in a while just had a new baby 8 weeks old
I am in central NJ
Posted By: NJwirenut

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/17/06 10:56 PM

Northern NJ here (Bergen Cty.)
Posted By: gfretwell

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/17/06 11:00 PM

This is the Florida style Ufer

http://members.aol.com/gfretwell/ufer.jpg

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 05-17-2006).]
Posted By: Roger

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/17/06 11:14 PM

Congrats Nov. [Linked Image] Now your work load really gets heavy. [Linked Image] Just kidding [Linked Image]

Roger
Posted By: ShockMe77

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/18/06 12:06 AM

I've already had a few issues with inspectors over the Ufer thing. I just finished rough wiring a house in Short Hills, NJ and for whatever reason the Ufer ground somehow got lost, or buried, or like I said, whatever reason. The inspector ok'd the service but made me install (2) ground rods. Seems that the excavator assumes this responsiblility and it's the electricians job to find the Ufer when installing the service. Personally, I feel the more grounds, the better the install, the better the product we are selling to our customers.
Posted By: ShockMe77

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/18/06 12:07 AM

Oh... and welcome aboard, Pat!

Rahway, NJ here.
Posted By: georgestolz

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/18/06 01:24 AM

If this is an addition, then you shouldn't be required to find a Ufer, IMO.
Posted By: gfretwell

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/18/06 03:40 AM

Shock has just given you the best reason why I like the Florida method.
It really takes a lot of work for some bozo to break a #5 rebar but a little piece of 4ga can easily get "lost".
Posted By: NJ Pat

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/18/06 03:10 PM

I didn't realize how many NJ folks are out there. I am in Wall, NJ.

I read the link to the Ufer ground and hotwires comments. I am assuming I am not going to fail an inspection without the rod but I am also hearing it is wise to add the rod anyway as a saftey precaution.

It was interesting seeing the footings with the Ufer in Florida. Wow that soil is sandy and not very deep. I guess being up in the colder climate over the years it just becomes normal to see footings way down deep.

Thank you for all the suggestions.

Pat
Posted By: gfretwell

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/18/06 06:08 PM

Those are stem wall houses with a relatively deep footer. If you build on a slab it is only 8". We never see freeze heaving tho.
This place is just a big sand box, until you hit coral rock.
Posted By: HotLine1

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/19/06 01:54 AM

NJ Pat:
Please remember that in this instance, the NEC is "Minimum" required.

Yes, you can install the two rods if you want, yes, you could also install any additional supplemental ground electrodes that you choose.

And, no you should not fail inspection with ufer, & bonds as above.

PS, I live in Brick, and am AHJ in Edison.

John
Posted By: HotLine1

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/19/06 01:56 AM

Nov:
Welcome back, and congratulations on the baby.

Boy or girl??

Everyone healthy??

John
Posted By: Scott35

Re: Footing grounds & Grd rods - 05/19/06 11:10 PM

NJ Pat;

1st off, Welcome to ECN!

As already mentioned, you do not necessarily need to use driven rods for a Grounding Electrode System.
They are commonly used, but are one of many techniques.

For your situation, the Concrete Embedded Reinforcement Rods (Rebar) type of electrode is sufficient to Suppliment the Cold Water Line - if this is usable as part of the Grounding Electrode System.

"Ufer Grounds" may be either the Rebar in Foundations and Footings, or may be a Concrete Encased bare Wire, of at least 20 feet length, #4 size and 24" burial depth.

Any "Available" type of Electrode should be included in the Grounding Electrode System. This would include:
  • Buried Metallic Water Piping,
  • Structural Steel,
  • Reinforcement Steel in Foundations and Footings,
  • Buried Metallic Well Casings


If you drove ground rods, or installed some type of ground plate or ring, these items would need to be included with the Grounding Electrode System - to form a single system.

In other words, all items need to be bonded together by an appropriate means, to form a single Grounding Electrode System.

These separate items may be close to each other, at a great distance from each other, or a combination of both.

Please reply if more information is needed.

Scott35
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