So here's one: Between the drywall guys and their roto-zips and the helpers who can't remember the 6" rule, we've been finding an awful lot of really short wires when it comes time to trim out houses.

Barring obvious alternatives like trying to pull extra slack, my usual solution is to simply add a pig-tail to the short section of wire, making it long enough to work with.

In addition to being a code violation, if I find several wires nicked in a small box, the extra wire-nuts can crowd things up fast.

I'd love to use some sort of non-reversable splice on these wires, but I'm none-to-comfortable with the idea of using something like a butt-splice. Seems like those things are best with LV.

I can't be the only one who runs into this problem, how do ya'll solve it?

-John

I find that a connector like the Wagos or Ideal push-in connector work well even when the wires barely exit the cable sheath.

This was disscussed some time ago, but other than special cover for your opening to protect against rocker gashes, someone had a great idea... A handy box cover with a spike through it. Hard to rock over, easy to find, and equally hard to get a zip through... I don't use them, as most of the rocker crews are pretty good about not doing it to me, and jamb everything back before they start.

As for your own guys cutting too short, a good crack across the wrist with a pair of linemens aughta set 'em strait. Most of my jobs I do line diagrams for, and often write the initials of who pulled and made up as I assign it. They check 'em off as they get done, and I check thier work. So if someone mis-wires a can, or has an open splice in one, the same guy can go back and fix his own mistake. Same can be said for outlets... That'll teach 'em.

Easy. You just do everything in pipe.

You can pull wires after drywall and repull if needed. We use 4x4x1.5 min boxes unless it wont fit.

I second the Wagos. I carry them just for that reason and they have saved the day more than once. As far as the butt splicers go, pulled a non working ceiling fan last week where they had butt spliced the neutral and it fell off. There was only 3/8" of wire but the pink wago worked fine.

The secret to butt splices is having the right (racheting) crimp tool, and using the correct size crimp for the wire size.

I thought smaller sized (#14-10, etc.)butt splices were for stranded wire only.

This is the reason why the code needs to be changed. Not sure of the code section off-hand, but slack unfortunately gets you red tagged.

I don't see why some slack or a loop is not permitted before boxes. If there was some slack, it would be no problem if the rockers did what they do best (damage our wires) -- just pull some of the slack in the box. Slack would also be nice if there's a last minute change for switch or receptacle locations.

I mean really, what's worse? Having a little bit of slack in the walls "just in case" or having to tape up and/or heatshrink damaged conductors, pig-tailing, having a box too tight from all the wirenuts? Code just doesn't make sense here.

Joe

I understand the idea but given what my guys' first attempt looks like, I'd be afraid to see what they did the second time around.

Techie, have you ever successfully used butt-splices on solid wire? Redsy pointed out they might only be for stranded, and I realised that's what makes me hesitant to use 'em: I've never seen any crimps for use on solid that small.
That is the only solution I've come up with so far; leave an "S" in the wire in front of each box so I have slack available if I need it. But I'm sure if I start doing that, I'll have someone crying at me about it.

-John

You could also try a product like this. They will send a free sample kit out to try.
www.StraightEdgeUSA.com

What I don't understand is why one trade (sheetrockers) seem to think that in the normal course of their work it is OK to damage another trades completed work and not be accountable. I know this really doesn't address the issue, just lettin' off steam.

I leave slack in nearly everything and haven't been flagged yet. Inspectors fairly 'real world' around here.

Stick a stacker above or below the box, and put a loop of cable in it. If you need to move, or pull some slack into the box... Give a good tug, and pull the loop out. The code only says that the romex be supported 12" before the box, and it is, when it is installed. After rock, if all goes choppy rocky... The slack you pulled is fished after the finish....

If you don't like the look of a loop, go from one side of the stud bay to the other, and use stackers instead of staples for the same effect.

"I understand the idea but given what my guys' first attempt looks like, I'd be afraid to see what they did the second time around."

Maybe its time for some training, or a good spanking. They do have to learn somehow....

e57 -

What is a "stacker"? Is it called anything else?

Steve

My new policy is going to be a slack loop, with the staple installed right where code calls for. Nick the wire with roto zip and I kick in the wall above the box, losen staple, pull in romex and make up box, walk away, send contractor a bill for the extra work I had to do.

Back charge the rockers a few times and you'll see how fast they stop doing that.

"Nick the wire with roto zip and I kick in the wall above the box, losen staple, pull in romex and make up box, walk away, send contractor a bill for the extra work I had to do."

Now there is a real solution, to the problem.

I give the offender the option. You do it or I will. Had a dry waller cover every box on one wall. We had 15 openings. I went to the super then the drywall forman and gave them 24 hrs to work it out. I knew about where the boxes were as I made notes on the as builts. Drywall forman copped an attitude and super was wishy washy. We found the boxes with a 12lb hammer. Super fired, drywall co fired and back charged. Another time Drywall formam worked with us and we only had to fix two out of place holes. If you play nice I play nice,if not I CYA and they lose. Now I carry a dig camera and take lots of pics. Rod

A stacker...
[img]http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs666XdTc7rrrrQ-[/img]

This one is 3M, but others make them too.
They hold snug enough for being fairly undisturbed in a wall, but loose enough that a good tug will pull a cable free of one if set up to do so.

Like the job I was on today, a "Designer" is running it. (Notorious for frequent changes ...) So I had a guy staple to about a foot from the box, then add a small loop of slack above or below, then into a stacker for the final support of the <12" of cable that would continue to the boxes.

I also use these boxes for just about everything.... (Several local supply houses have them as the same price as a regular nail-on.)

The screw on the side allows the box to be adjusted for depth, but also allows the box to be removed as well. So you can easily reach in the wall and pull up more wire too.

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 05-11-2006).]

As for buried boxes, I take my own sweet time and trace the circuit with a toner, and poke a bunch of holes with a screwdriver to check. Then charge full rate as T&M as back charge.....

"I think its right here.... (Mash) Nope. Maybe here???? (mash) Nope."

e57 -

Thanks for the picture. I have seen those before and didn't pay attention to what they were called.

Steve

Oh ya, the drywallers... I think we counted 43 buried boxes on one half of one wing of one floor in the retirement home we wired... thats not including buried BX " tails" for certan lights as well as damaged conductors inside the boxes... Actually it was comical to see how they tried to " hide" the damage, especially to all my fire-alarm wiring...... Lots of O/T for me straightening out that headache!!

A.D

I did one reno on a kitchen just before Christmas and the rockers covered all the outlet boxes. I still make a drawing with measurements of all the installations and that saved the day for me that time. Once Christmas was over I made up new contract blanks that, in addition to the usual other stuff, contain the words (in bold letters):

"Any extra time to repair, replace or otherwise rework any damaged, covered or altered electrical work done by any person or entity other than this contractor after the preliminary rough-in has been completed will be added as an extra charge to this contract at a rate of $1000.00 per hour or part thereof or $10,000.00 per day or part thereof, whichever is higher."

(I leave the interpretation of what a part of a day is, up to the person signing the contract, but what it really means is that if it's going to take more than half a day to correct anything the $1000.00 hourly rate is out the window.)( My solicitors advice.)

I put in a similar provision dealing with the completion of the trim out to complete the work. (Receptacles, switches, light fixtures, DW's, GD's, etc.)

It's become part of the stuff I explain to each and every person before they sign the contract, with particular emphasis on their responsibility to carefully oversee the other contractors during their work. I had one GC complain that he couldn't be everywhere and watch everthing so I explained that I wouldn't supervise other trades either. He walked away but signed the contract later that day after having had time to think about things for a bit. I haven't had a problem with any other contractors work since. I've not had a single problem or negative comment with any HO about their responsibilities at all when they are doing the job as themselves being the GC.

By the way, I still make drawings and now take lots of photos too.

Ya know I really do feel lucky to have been working with good rock and tape crews for the last several years. (for the most part.) Personally I feel that there is some subtel skill to that trade. (Esspecially with custom finishes, as most of the jobs I am on are. Hacks would just not get that work...) I get treated well by them, they use guide point bits, instead of busted or non-guide points. I GET my boxes BLOWN OUT and free of dust. I don't get joints at my switches or outlets. Mud is clear of my openings, and they even stuff paper in the boxes to protect against paint. But here's the kicker, it's thier job! And it's on all of the upper end GC's contracts to do so. (As a boiler plate spec.) Likewise, if I knick an egg-shell finish, thats 3 back charges. Rock, Paint, and GC for coordination... But if I.m missing a box and find it, thats 3 back charges to the rocker... So they often count the openings before they start, and match it to thier bid, count again at rock and mud.

Then, there are the hacks.... Low ball rockers with little to no skill in the way of finish, and the low balling GC's who hire them. I occassionaly work for that type too. I treat them the same way, but I ussually don't get in return.

I bumped this up for any comments that you might see right or wrong with my method of handling this.

Any other thoughts?

I sincerely apologize to anyone that see's this as a negative thread from an EC, pilot, and an apprentice from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

Different methods, same grief all over the world... if you remember the thread over at the picture forum, European drywall boxes are round and cut in using a hole saw drill bit. Sometimes we cut them in, sometimes the drywallers do. If they do, beware! They'll most likely miss a few.
Never had nicked wires fortunately, but after all I hardly do any drywall jobs.
Tiled-over boxes are even more fun!

I remember a time when the drywallers measured and cut their holes before hanging the rock. Back then the only problems we had were the tape and float guys (mud dobbers) filling our boxes with mud. As long as there are people who don't care about the other crafts, there's going to be problems.
Doc

Check Pilot, I don't see anything wrong... The price is high, but if you feel that is what your time is worth, so be it.

I appreciate all the responses.

It seems like standard-operating-procedure is to beat the heck out of the sheetrock to get slack, and/or backcharge the rocker. Unfortinately, neither of those is an option for me: I don't control pricing, and I'm sure damaging sheetrock will upset the higher-ups.

I take it that WAGO's or wire-nuts are about my only options then, eh?

-John