http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032633/

Scroll down till you find the link:
"Can you trust your repairman"

Dnk...

Any way for those of us who refuse to use IE to view this?

they do these setups every now and again. crooks are crooks. doesn't matter how they charge, their still gonna be a crook. These expose's do more to hurt our industry than we realize. rather than knowing their actual cost and charging according (ethically and legally) on each job. They try to be low priced and resort to this stuff to make a buck.

makes you understand why consumers think the way they do of us. this is their viewpoint and point of reference.

These setups never focus on the legal and ethical contractors that do right by the customer.

I use Mozilla Firefox in place if IE and the link seems to work just fine
-Will

the first repairman certainly did his job correctly, and we all should be as considerate and honest as him. What do we gain by dishonesty? What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul?

Just curious why would a HVAC guy called in to fix a A/C even look at the water heater.

"rather than knowing their actual cost and charging according (ethically and legally) on each job. They try to be low priced and resort to this stuff to make a buck."

maherle,
Does it always have to come back to this, dosn't it? The honest guy knows his costs, and charges appropriately, the crook is someone who doesn't know his costs?

Or..

Maybe he had to raise enough money to cover his full-page ad in the yellow pages, or maybe his boss offered "incentives" & commissions. I wonder of he is paid "piecework"

Live & let live brother.

actually redsy it does.

i don't care if you charge flat rate, T&M or barter in wampum.

What else is this about? You don't know your costs, you look for ways to make up your shortfall.

but as I also said, a crook is a crook. By my statement "ethically and legally" i was actually referencing made up overcharges. If my financials show that I need to charge $1000/hr legitimately, then I am not overcharging. But if they show that I need $50/hr, but I charge $1000, then you get into a legal arena.

But Redsy, it will always come back to this. For the simple fact my friend, everything in any business comes back to this. It's the basis for everything and anything we do on a daily basis. Doesn't matter how you charge, just know how much and why.

Now, my question to you is this - What do you have against trying to teach contractors about running a better company and making a better life for their family?

Why are you so against guys charging what they are truly worth so that they don't have work 60 hrs a week and pinch pennies to get by?

Thats what I don't understand.

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 05-02-2006).]

Quote:
"Now, my question to you is this - What do you have against trying to teach contractors about running a better company and making a better life for their family?

Why are you so against guys charging what they are truly worth so that they don't have work 60 hrs a week and pinch pennies to get by?"


maherle,

I can't imagine anything I've said that could lead you to belive I am against either of the things you say I am.

It is not me who has resorted to hyperbole, such as "dragging the whole industry down", the "straw man" arguments stated above, and the analogies to "Starbucks Coffeehouse", which is an entirely different industry with little in common with electrical contracting.

Every business is different, and every business person in each business has different objectives.

That is what you seem to be unable to understand.


[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 05-03-2006).]

Quote:
"Now, my question to you is this - What do you have against trying to teach contractors about running a better company and making a better life for their family?

Got any credentials as to how you know what you are teaching?
A teaching degree?
Any Expertice in Economic theory?
Proven history in market capitalization?
A business name or website, that would prove your are an electrical contractor that actually started a business.

I find it interesting that you, mahlere, continue to blame other contractors, for ruining the industry, and now blame the news media.

Quote:
These expose's do more to hurt our industry than we realize. rather than knowing their actual cost and charging according (ethically and legally) on each job. They try to be low priced and resort to this stuff to make a buck.

This story didn't ruin our industry at all, all it did was inform consumers, that some contractors are trying to take advantage of them by being crooked...

So tell me, why are you against that?

Dnk..



[This message has been edited by Dnkldorf (edited 05-02-2006).]

Gentlemen:
Seems like the 'jersey guys' are starting to go at it! Time for my 2 cents, or maybe 3 cents tonite.

As I work "both sides of the fence", I see some interesting pricing, both on permit apps, and the occasional contract copy. (Resi work; NOT new)

Frankly, a few prices really caught my attention. But, alas, everyone is entitled to make a living. (?) Two (2) instances really caught my eye, and I will share some details on one......

100 amp, resi service replacement; SEU (15-20'), straps, head, connectors, and a 100 amp MCB, 16 circuit panel, 5 1 pole cb's.
Minimal distance to water main; normal grd rod conditions. Not rocket science, no special conditions, wood frame house.

The H/O (80+years old) came into the basement with his permit copy, and a receipt from the EC. I told him, I have my copy of the permit, and I don't need/want the receipt. He insisted.......$1990.00 + fees.

Long story shortened, I made 1 call. Job required 2nd rod; panel marked; branch circuits stapled per NEC, and 3 breaker blanks. (workmanship left a lot, but I can't write it up). Mentioned to the EC "a little pricey"; he said 'NA, guy's got $$$'. I reminded him that the Board has guidelines for what consumers feel is 'gouging' & read them to him. He decided to refund 900+/-

Now, that I typed all of that.....
You guys are in business for yourselves, your success or failure only depends on ONE person...YOU. Fair pricing, and FAIR competition would be an ideal world, but...

Like one of the 'old timers' told me when I was a lot younger.."you should let your reputation be your best advertisement, hell, who trusts anyone from the yeller pages??"

PS: There are a few business courses available next semester at Ocean County College, and a Middlesex County College.

John

as i have stated numerous times, none of this is my ideas. I haven't had an original thought in years.

first off, i don't blame 'contractors' i simply point out that some guys just want a job without a boss without understanding the ramifications on the industry.

I do however, take offense, and place blame on guys who publically, and incorrectly I might add, call a good segment of his fellow 'contractors' thieves. Especially in a market that he doesn't cater to and regarding a system that he doesn't understand.

Back to my credentials, I don't need them for this. These are not my ideas. I'm simply relaying them.

But folks like Frank Blau, Ellen Rohr, Maurice Maio, Randall Hilton, Tom Warner, Charlie Greer, Matt Smith, et al is where I learned all this.

I'm simply regurgetating (sp?) tried and true ideas that have been in use for years.

And actually, i wasn't blaming the media. They are in business to get ratings. Plus, I'm not against exposing crooked contractors, I'm just for showing the good as well. These shows don't. Not good ratings.

Redsy, Dnk. Good luck. Mono and Kiwi have you in their local market to deal with. I don't.

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 05-02-2006).]

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 05-02-2006).]

"the Board has guidelines for what consumers feel is 'gouging' & read them to him. He decided to refund 900+/-"

Is this the same board, that stood on a stage, and told future contractors that marking up material, more then 10% could be considered price gouging, i was there, and after that, is when i should of decided to make pizza delivery my vocation in life, i can understand you looking at the estimated cost on the permit, and then comparing it with the job, but there are times when these so calles easy jobs, can require more then the time to assemble the service, when the job begins you do a load calc, to do it right it takes time, you now have too give the utility a load data inquiry, as you know, there is the need to properly identify all circuits, and how about the 2 hour trip to pick up a meter pan, did the existing cables all fall in place, on the new panel, or did he have to shorten, or extend all the cables, each job has to be priced with all the job conditions considered, the idea, that it is a certain size service, and they should cost so much, is not only a bad idea, but one that if preformed eniough times will have you delivering pizzas.

"100 amp, resi service replacement; SEU (15-20'), straps, head, connectors, and a 100 amp MCB, 16 circuit panel, 5 1 pole cb's.
Minimal distance to water main; normal grd rod conditions."

Yes i agree, that may be a bit over!


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 05-03-2006).]

maherle,

What the heck is Mono & Kiwi?

MAn he was wishing there was another way out of that house.

actually yes, this is true (partially) if a guy does not know his true costs - and charge accordingly- he is a crook.

now maybe he's robbing the customer or worse yet, giving the customer a great deal and robbing from his family and his employees families.

While I won't defend someone gouging the elderly, I'm glad inspectors here don't get involved in my business.

Hotline1...If he had done the service for less than the cost of materials (or at labor rates below minimum wage), could we expect you to have a long conversation with the homeowner to send him another check?...of course not.

Dave

Inspectors here are not allowed to get involved with pricing. (for good reason)

"Inspectors here are not allowed to get involved with pricing. (for good reason)"

I am not worried about an inspector, getting involved, they may be able to help, when some elderly person, is in fact being gouged, it may be their only protection.

Not all elderly need help, but some do, what i try to do, is ask if they have someone in their family, that can review the work, before they sign, and work starts, i just find it, a good way of avoiding problems.

Guys:

1st, the 100 amp $$ was from the receipt/contract to HO had, & marked "paid-cash". I did NOT ask for this info, & I don't put much faith into the $$$ estimated costs on the permit app.

I never get involved with the EC's $$, nor do I say anything to the consumer.

IMHO, this HO was financially abused. Had this EC offered any type of reasonable explanation, as to the circumstances that resulted in the cost, as opposed to a crack like "the guy's got plenty of $$$", I would have left it with the listed violations.

Tiger:
Yes, I would (and have) talked to many EC's, and YES, I talk to more HO's then I really care too, and defend the EC's. I'm not the $$$ referee. This was an isolated situation.

Les:
"Gouging" is addressed within the Law Book. I believe in trying to solve (difuse) situations before they get out of hand. I left a few details out of the original post, mental & physical relating to that HO; if you are interested, call or e-mail me.

John

John,

I understand, that is why i ask if they have someone in their family, that can review the work, before i do anything.

But not all contractors will, risk loosing a job, by doing what i consider the right thing.

You may be the only person that can help someone that has been abused, and it is proper, for you, to at least, investigate any of these issues.

Les:
I left out one thing, in the interest of trying to condense a bad situation into a breif synopsis.

The 'lady of the house' in that instance was residing in the living room in a full blown hospital bed, oxygen, etc.

BTW, I had my conversation on a 'man-to-man' basis, & on my own time, on my own phone.

Have a great weekend.

John

To pick up the ball and run with it.
The general public sees us (caused by the media) as a bunch of under-educated, under-worked and overpaid bums that weren't good enough to pass any Diploma or Doctorate course.
The training of an Electrician these days is sometimes overlooked in favour of people that work in our field but never bother to get any qualifications.
These are the people that the media like to focus on and it gives us all a bad name.
If you see a report that puts us in a bad light, complain to the source of that report, don't just sit back and hope that someone else will for you.
It's our Industry, we should be standing up for it.
Us Electricians are well trained and are generally nice, free thinking people.
Getting into our trade is not a 5 minute thing.
That should be stated across the world and that is what seperates us from any DIY'er, we do this every day of the week, every week of the year, we aren't a "oncer" trade.

Trumpy:
Well said, my friend.
A few days back, a comment was made regarding the 24 hour cable news channels here. They manufacture stories, create hype, and supposedly generate a mountain from a grain of sand.

As to our trade, yes the "hacks" create a problem, but that's what life deals out. Unfortunatly, the "hacks" usually don't get caught in the act. (Note 'usually')

Overall, I'm proud to be a electrician, AHJ, etc., it's what I worked hard for.

John

If an inspector is looking at pricing for any reason other than pricing the permit fees themselves, then the inspector should also look at the guy who is low balling work and have a "man to man" talk with him telling him that he is killing the industry for the legitimate contractor who cannot compete against the low ball bid.

OK, I guess what I consider a blatant rip, is upsetting a few people.

PCBelarge:
1st, permit fees (electrical) are based on 'items' and sizes, not costs here in NJ. (Unless it is a "special circumstance" job, that is not listed on the fee schedule)
Fee schedules are by municipal ord.

2nd, what I said was one isolated case, out of a few.

3rd, I stand by what I said above regarding my comments. In lieu of what I refered to as a 'man-to-man', my other option would have been a letter/call to the BOEOEC, which is not something I want to do, except as a last resort.

John

The topic is "Can you trust your repairman"

You may need to consider, that the inspector could be the only one left to help, after the repairman leaves, the main reason for licensing, was to afford the consumer some protection, from shoddy work, and price gouging, the purpose of licensing, is not to protect the contractor and his business, but to qualify them by examine.

So when an inspector suspects, that gouging may have taken place, here in New Jersey, it would be his duty, to at least investigate, i would prefer a call from my AHJ, rather then a letter from the board.

LK:

You have to get a really big AMEN!!!

You made my point, hit the nail on the head & drove it home.

Thank You

John

Good job Les..........

Dnk..

When my wife was in the HVAC biz she got one of these calls. She found the planted bug pretty quick (a jammed float switch in the condensate pan that shuts off the compressor), she didn't try to sell anything or even charge for the call and the whole clip ended on the cutting room floor.
It was really a pretty raw deal because they made the call sound like they wanted to see a salesman. Most HVAC "techs" are on commission. Whether someone should replace a 10SEER or older machine with something newer and more efficient is certainly more of a judgement call than simply what is wrong with it when the tech shows up. Throwing away a perfectly good 20 year old machine for a new one paid for itself in about 4 years, just in electric bills and I got an FPL rebate that pushed that payback period up a year. It is rude not to fix the easy problem simply to make a sale tho.

Quote

"Most HVAC "techs" are on commission."

What is wrong with this principal?

A technician's job is to diagnose and repair the problem. Once commissions enter the equation, objectivity goes out the window.
The customer becomes subject to rip-offs.

Redsy:
Someone mentioned to me recently that the plumbers that respond to "service" calls have some type of incentive also.

Something to the effect of 'replace the washers, sell a shut-off valve, oh the drain tail is lookin' corroded, well how about a new faucet & drain while I'm here.

A HVAC guy I know has techs/salesmen; like a 'service advisor' at the auto dealers.

John

John,

Mother in law just had drain cleaned, he was there, one, and a half hours, $384

He said he had 4 more jobs, to get to.

I have always been somewhat conflicted on this since I like fixing things but in the case of something like a 10-15 year old A/C unit it is reasonable to think about replacing it, instead of fixing it.
I do think the salesman/tech should make a fair comparison but I am not offended if he tries to say new is better.
If you guys took a call for a tripped breaker that wouldn't reset and you found some nightmare panel, would you just replace the bad breaker or would you suggest an upgrade?

I just want to throw this into the mix:
Why is it that people that have already used a service, say Phone, Electric, a service-person, always complain after they have used the service they are paying for?.
I have a friend she works at a call centre for the local Pay-TV service, people moan and whinge that over the 3 months of thier trial period, they couldn't watch it because they were too busy and therefore want thier money refunded.
Huh???. (Get real)
Is this human nature?.
Is it incompetence?, because I always seem to be up with all of my bills used or not.