This question is for the electrical community.

How do you electricians that are in business legally deal with unlicensed individuals or companies that are engaging in electrical contracting?

Here in NC, it is a felony to solicit or to enter a contract to do electrical work without first having attained a licence from the state. As a licensed electrical contractor, I resent anyone trying to take business away from me that has not bothered to attain a license. I equate this to any professional occupation that is regulated by the state such as doctors or lawyers. Can I legally advertise that I will fix broken bones, pull teeth, handle a court case for someone, or do brain surgery, if I am not a licensed doctor or lawyer? The answer is obviously no, and the primary reason is the safety of the consumers. I am responsible for everything I do in my business, and have to follow all the rules as well as carry liability insurance on my business and my commercial vehicle. This is why I look for ads in the local papers offering to do electrical work, and investigate the owners to see if they are licensed. If the business is not licensed then I complain to the state board of electrical contractors and they investigate further. Generally, what they do is strongly advise the perpetrators to immediately stop advertising electrical services, and let them off the hook with a warning. The ads are changed to reflect this by dropping the electrical references.
The state board has a full time investigator in my region that is doing his job well. Most of the ads are for handyman services that include painting, drywall, carpentry, electrical work, trash hauling etc..., they are not electricians, and have no right to advertise electrical services. One company kept sending me glossy postcards as well as big ads in the local papers advertising home remodeling and including electrical work as well. I called them and asked if they had an electrician on board, and if they were interested in subcontracting any of their electrical work. They told me that they had a "master" electrician working for them, and they didn't need my services. This got my curiosity up and I looked up their business license. It wasn't from this part of the state, and did not include electrical work.I then contacted the state board and an investigation was started. The latest ads have removed any reference to them providing electrical work.
I have seen some results of work by unlicensed individuals, and some of it is frightening and dangerous. I really don't care if someone that does electrical work for a living does a side job as a favor for someone. They have to be careful and know that they are not working legally and can get into serious trouble if they are caught. What really bugs me is blatent disregard for the law by advertising their illegal activities and taking my business away from me, while jeopardizing the safety of the customers.
My wife calls me petty and spiteful for reporting these ads, and I ask her if she is concerned if her doctor graduated medical school, has a license, and knows what he is doing.
What do you think about this?

I agree 100%. Here in BC it's illegal for a non-certified person to advertise electrical work. Furthermore, it's illegal for any non-certified person to charge for electrical work.
There's really not much that can be done about it, especially when a lot of the jobs they do are "cash under the table". When I see ads for electrical work that I doubt are from a certified contractor, I mail them into the electrical safety branch and let them deal with it. The problem is, with all the cutbacks there just aren't the resources for officials to go after the non-licensed ones.
But the real problem is much of the public who are trying to get the best bang for their buck, and mainly out of ignorance hire someone who isn't qualified. They're the ones that need to be educated on the pitfalls of not hiring qualified people.

Licensing does not necessarily mean "quality work". I have witnessed work by so-called reputable EC's that was some of the worst workmanship and code non-compliance that can be imagined. In many, many areas the large contractor's work is not even inspected as the inspector relies on the EC's size and assumes the work is O.K.
So, a license is not a substitute for knowledge and ability as from reading postings I believe several forum posters would agree.

"Licensing does not necessarily mean "quality work". I have witnessed work by so-called reputable EC's that was some of the worst workmanship and code non-compliance that can be imagined. In many, many areas the large contractor's work is not even inspected as the inspector relies on the EC's size and assumes the work is O.K.
So, a license is not a substitute for knowledge and ability as from reading postings I believe several forum posters would agree. "

Arguing about quality and know-how have nothing to do with what is legal.

Having an EC may not mean absolute quality and know-how, but it is the way to bet.


I agree with Festus 100%.

[This message has been edited by Amazingmg (edited 03-31-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Amazingmg (edited 03-31-2006).]

Let's face reality the quality of someone's work is based on his personal ethics, not the amount of gold foil paper on his wall.

"Let's face reality the quality of someone's work is based on his personal ethics, not the amount of gold foil paper on his wall."
I agree, that's true. But if someone is willing to subvert the law by operating without a license and risk their own freedom and livelyhood, how much more would they be willing to risk of yours? In essence, if they'll ignore the big rules what makes you think they'll follow any other rules that aren't convenient? If you are licensed and insured, your customer has a legal path to take if something goes bad.

Guys the question is not if licensing means better work.

If you want to go down that road I suggest starting a new thread for that.

The question is when you are a licensed electrician in an area that already requires licensing how do you deal with those that are breaking the law by doing unlicensed work.

These unlicensed workers bring the rate down for the rest of us.

In my case the State requires me to be licensed, I have to pay a yearly fee and I have to take continuing education to maintain my license.

At the least the State should prosecute those that break these laws.

Bob

I couldn't agree more Bob.
Why should some look to circumvent the laws that others have to follow to make a living?.

Gentlemen:

First, New Jersey has a Board of Electrical Contractors, which sounds similar to what Festus said, perhaps NC 'copied' our format.

Those of you who don't know me, I'm a Lic. EC in NJ, since 1985; and also a Lic. AHJ, I teach at a County Vo-Tech part time, and started teaching CEU's to EC's, also part time.

Our Board imposes $$$$$ fines on un-licenced persons performing electrical work, also IF that person was 'in the lic. application process (submitting app., or scheduled to test, or waiting for test results) they WILL be banned. Some of the fines, and payment plans are posted within the Board meeting minutes on the web site.

My stance; I'll drop a dime fast. Have I?? YES.

IF the guys who paid their dues to get the License don't keep their eyes open, who will??

NJ is becoming a tougher place to financially survive with tax increases, and all the other 'costs of living'. That said, people are looking to 'cut corners' and MAY let the 'handyman' fix the wiring.

As an AHJ, I look out for the safety of the public, conformance with the NEC (as adopted by NJ in UCC), and 'people doing what they should not be doing'

John

I'm not a licensed electrician, but I do "side jobs" for friends and family whenever they ask me to. I know licensed contractors frown upon people like me for doing unlicensed work. And they frown because they think we don't charge enough or don't do the work properly. There's really no way for me to spin this because the licensed contractor is right, and has the right, to be pissed off about guys who moonlight at night. However, if you're a licensed contractor now and used to do side jobs before you were legit, you are a hypocrit.

Hows a contaractor supposed to get started. Are they just supposed to give up potential work and possibly future clients because there not licensed? Are they just supposed to one day after they get there license say I'll become a contractor now and hope the calls come in? I'm not saying it's right, but there is a grey area here. Im not talking about some hack who thinks he knows wiring but someone who is taking the necessary steps to become a legitimate electrical contractor. Someone who always does things to code even though he knows it'll never be inspected and who refuses to cut corners because it'll save him or the homeowner money. Just remember how hard it was to get started yourself and remove the speck from your own eye.

Shock:
Not for nothing, BUT.....here in NJ:

Someone pays someone to perform a service.
The work is being performed.
An AHJ finds out, and 'catches' someone.
MINIMUM Municipal fine $2000.00
State Fine, $5 to $10K
A criminal charge filed, and a criminal record.
And, like I said above, IF the someone is in process for a Lic., as the boys in the 'port' say "fugedaboutit"

John

I really don't see what the problem is with unlicensed individuals.

If people are willing to risk their lives and property by hiring unlicensed and otherwise unqualified hacks, then that is their right in a free society. And when they run into trouble, like if their home or business burns down, or they electrocute themselves, why should any of us care? (Other than the small incidental costs of having the fire department or EMS come out.)

Just like if people want to risk their lives going to unlicensed doctors. If they die, is it any skin off of anyone elses back? If people want to be stupid, I say let them!

It is NOT the job of government to protect people from themselves -- at least in the United States anyway.

If you think that a government issued license is the key to your busines success, then you might as well close up shop now and work for someone else. Unlicensed individuals are not taking ANY business away from you. If you're not getting jobs, it's not because others are unlicensed, it's because your not marketing yourself and your company, and people don't see your value.

Don't take this the wrong way, but instead of wasting your time ratting out others to the government, invest your time in promoting your OWN business. So you got a handyman to take "electrical" out his ad. Did that put any food on your table? (They're still gonna do electric work anyway).

Also look at it this way, when a handyman or other hack screws something up (like they invariably do), look at how much more you can bang 'em over the head to redo it right. Some people need a good education like this, and will truly appreciate it! My old man always used to say, "charge 'em, they'll appreciate it more..." too bad he never practiced what he preached.

Don't get me wrong, other than maybe drywall repair and minor clean-up, I wouldn't trust a handyman to so much as wire up a doorbell from what I've seen.

I also agree with others here that licensing alone doesn't assure quality work either -- just like licensing doesn't assure people can safely either, as everyone here knows. It just means you're "licensed" which will never be enough assurance for me.

Joe

Bot:
I worked for a large Co. for 17 years 'till they went out. Went to a local EC, paid my 'dues' (4 years), did the Vo-Tech thing too. Took the test, passed, got my Lic. and struggled. Met a few people, made some friends, found a few GOOD accounts and that's it.

In between, took the AHJ courses and TESTS, passed, got the AHJ Lic. Squeezed in an Instructors Certification to teach Basic Electric at Vo-Tech. Squeezed in Certification to teach Continuing Ed to EC's.

I know the "you gotta do what ya gotta do" scenario; been there. Just be aware of the consequences.

BTW: One could always work for an EC while one was starting out; even a day or two??

John

Here's one way California deals with the unlicensed.
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/news/news20060214.asp

Funny post, I just got home from doing some side work. I think theres differant circumstances that need to be looked at. Tonight I moved some lines for a friend of mine whos kitchen remodel is being held up because everyones busy. This friend always treats me well when I am a customer of his business. I wont be paid cash for what I worked on but Ill get a few deals on some items I have been wanting to purchase. If I didnt move the lines his handyman wouldve so either way an EC would not have gotten the job.

Ive known many ECs who before they were licensed were doing side work eveynight and every weekend, a few of them after getting licensed starting turning others in for the same thing they have done for years. That to me is BS and nothing but a rat.

Ill do work for friends and family and usually will not accept money from friends. I get asked weekly on company jobs if Ill do sidework, my response is always "no it is the same as stealing".

<Joe Said>
If people are willing to risk their lives and property by hiring unlicensed and otherwise unqualified hacks, then that is their right in a free society. And when they run into trouble, like if their home or business burns down, or they electrocute themselves, why should any of us care? (Other than the small incidental costs of having the fire department or EMS come out.)
</Joe Said>

Then lets pass a law that says [ Clowns that use "unlicensed and otherwise unqualified hacks" to wire their homes must put up a sign on them that says "Wired by Hack - Do not Save in Case of Fire"] so that the Fire Department does not have to put their people at risk to try and save a burning structure that might not have burned had it been wired by a properly regulated trades person.

The purpose of the rules governing who can do electrical work and that of the other regulated trades; is meant to do more then protect people from themselves. It is also meant to protect me and you and the rest of us from being impacted by a fire in their house right next door to your house.

The history of the CEC, NEC and NFPA codes all owe their existance to the desire to protect society as a whole from the impact of the fool who thinks he knows better.

As trades people... we need to help validate our worth and the service we provide to an ever increasingly cost conscious consumer. By not doing so... we risk falling to the same level of the "hack" in the eye of the market we serve.

First of all, there is a world of diference between helping your Grandmother, and putting up fliers at the laundromat.
There is a difference between a five-minute job after hours, and running a 24/7 "business" off the tailgate of your truck.
Finally, there is a difference between replacing a receptacle, and doing a service change.

There are reasons for contracting laws, and not all of them are there for sinister reasons.
I have known many folks who deliberately seek out the unlicensed. At best, these customers are miserly scum who think thay can get Champaign service at cola prices. At worst, they are scam artists, looking for fresh victims.
You see, they know that the unlicensed guy has full liability, yet there is no obligation to pay him. So they jerk the guy around, and end up getting some work for little more than the price of the materials.

When I did "side work," I made sure that I discussed it with my boss at work; I bought parts through the company (and paid them back). I did it this way because:
-This gave me the protection of working under his license;
-It avoided possible conflicts with what business he wanted to do; and,
-I wasn't about to endanger a full time job for a POS one-shot deal.

You know, the last time I checked, there were no laws that prohibited anyone from getting licensed- even if they had day jobs.
Now, maybe you will say "it's too expensive," and I might even agree with you. But consider this-
How will you finance the parts for a job, buy necessary tools, pay for a 'call back,' etc...if you can't even afford a license?

The only thing wron with the licensing laws is that they fail to address the cheap jackalopes who create a market for the unlicensed guys.

John:

I had no idea until last night that doing work 'on the side' is now a 4th degree crime in the state of NJ. My teacher at the Vo-tech told us that. And I am going to school so I can get my electrical/ business license because I realize how risky it is to do work and not have one. It's a shame that I'm not eligible to take the exam because a former employer had to take me off the books because he could not afford workman's comp ins. because he did not charge the customers enough. But these are the cards I've been dealt and I need to do side work to build a clientelle (sp?) so I can go into business for myself. It's also the reason I choose to come to this website so I'm better than the next moron who doesn't know how to do run a business.

If your doing side work, and your not licensed, chances are pretty good, there is no permit pulled.

When you do a job, and there was no permit issued, the homeowner just put his life investment on the block, because his homeowners insurance, is no longer whole, insurance underwriters protect their investment, by putting a clause in the insurance contract, that all work done must meet all building codes, or other language that protects the insurer from a loss.

Now, who do you think the homeowner is going to go after, when his insurer denies payment on a claim, and don't think this dosen't happen.

No, i din't do side work before i had my license, and i made sure every job, had a permit pulled.


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 04-01-2006).]

Here are some newsletters with actions against licensed contractors and non licensed people doing electrical work in N.C.
http://www.ncbeec.org/newsletters.htm

I personally think unlicensed workers (handy man types) contracting electrical work should be reported.

Roger

Glad I got the responses. I wasn't sure how everyone was going to react. Some points though:
I have seen electricians of such high caliber and knowledge that if I lived to be 200 years old, I still wouldn't be as good as them. But, They are unlicensed because they just can't pass the exams, or are afraid to take them over fear of failure, or can't get the documentation and affidavits necessary to verify their time in the trade. They are doomed to work for another person and get paid far less than what they are worth.But, no matter how good they are, they are working illegally if they attempt to contract or advertise electrical work.
I carry 1,000,000.00 of liability insurance for my business. I do not want to jeopardize my home and family because as a sole proprietor , I am personally responsible for my business, unlike a corporation.
My service van also has a 1,000,000.00 commercial liability policy in case I am involved in an accident.
I always give a written invoice in my company name for the homeowners to use for reference, warranty, and for tax deduction purposes.
I pay taxes on my income, my vehicle, and my business.
I have gone through all the hoops, taken an apprenticeship, gone to school at night for years, cashed in my retirement IRA early to keep afloat financially while perusing my dream of working for myself and owning my own business. My ambitions are simple, to make enough in the next twenty years to be able to be retired in style, and to pass on something for my family.
If I have to hire someone, I will not treat them as I have seen others being treated. I will pay them a living wage, or not hire anyone at all.
I will protect that which I have earned through hard work and determination.I will continue to ask the state to warn unlicensed electricians that they are not acting legally by advertising their services.
If you don't pass the bar exam, you don't practice law. If you don't have a medical degree, and a state license you ain't no doctor. If you are an unlicensed, uninsured, cash under the table tax evader attempting to do electrical contracting,then you are in some deep doo-doo when you get caught. But if you do then I can get a friend of mine to represent you cheap. He isn't a real lawyer, but he works for cash, and he has a job at a law firm as a janitor, and he gets to read a lot of legal stuff he picks out of the trash.

I'm quite impressed with this discussion. This is one that could easily become a flame war. See the credentials thread for my background; I don't know that I really have 'place' to speak on this issue.

My take on this is that licensing laws, like all laws, have both their direct intended effects as well as their side effects. Conspiracy theorists like to focus on the side effects as the insidious reason that people actually passed the laws. Me, I like to try to figure out and state clearly what the side effects are, so that others can decide if the side effects are themselves worth supporting along with the law itself. Some of these side effects cause direct harm to good people.

This discussion has provided pictures of both the best and the worst of electrical licensing laws.

festus said both:

"I have seen some results of work by unlicensed individuals, and some of it is frightening and dangerous. "
and

"I have seen electricians of such high caliber and knowledge that if I lived to be 200 years old, I still wouldn't be as good as them. But, They are unlicensed because they just can't pass the exams, or are afraid to take them over fear of failure, or can't get the documentation and affidavits necessary to verify their time in the trade. They are doomed to work for another person and get paid far less than what they are worth.But, no matter how good they are, they are working illegally if they attempt to contract or advertise electrical work."

In my mind the _reason_ for requiring licensing is to provide a minimum standard of skill, knowledge, and ability to make safe electrical installations. Someone who provides this level of service _without_ a licence is not a public safety problem, is not a hack, and is not violating the direct intent of the law.

But they are violating the letter of the law. While not being unfair to their customers, they are being somewhat unfair to those who have taken the time to jump through all the legal hoops while at the same time being providing quality electrical work. There are lots of things that come with proper licensing, including all of the proper permitting and inspections, insurance, taxes, etc. Unlicensed work means that you don't incur a bunch of costs, and also means that you have given up certain safeguards.

As Reno notes, doing unlicensed work means that you've given up a bunch of safeguards that protect you, and this means that even a _good_ electrician, if doing unlicensed work, is open to all sorts of abuse. Here, in my mind, is a major downside of licensing laws: if, for whatever reason, someone has not met the letter of the law, even if their work is good and safe, then they are open to abuse with little protection.

AZsam has also noted that there are licensed contractors who don't do quality work. These are people who meet the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law.

So there are 4 groups advertising their services:

Hacks who violate both the letter and the spirt of the law. They endanger lives. IMHO do everything that you can to through the book at them. Use the licensing laws as they were intended, report them, sue them, etc.

People who meet the letter of the law but not the spirit. People who perhaps put the time it, or are working 'under' someone else's licence, or otherwise are legal, but who are cutting corners, not keeping up with current code, not doing proper installation. IMHO these people also need to be reported, but presumably they have the basic skills, and simply need to 'shape up'.

People who meet both the letter and the spirit of the law. This is the ideal.

People who meet the spirit of the law but not the letter. My guess is that this group is actually few and far between. Being an electrician takes brains, and if you have the skill, then you probably also have the skill to jump the hoops. But I don't know every circumstance. It seems to me that if _you_ as a properly licensed EC know someone who you personally feel is a good electrician, but who is not licensed, then you _are_ being petty to sic the law on them. If someone is violating the letter, but not the spirit, of the law, then IMHO one has a moral obligation to try to 'bring them into the fold'.

-Jon

Let me say one thing on this topic..

Generally to be licensed, you need to prove you have a business..

Businesses must pay taxes, in the form of either state/federal..These guys that are unlicensed are not paying their fair share that we as contractors must..it hurts all of us, whether you realise it or not..

Dnk..

Here you must be licensed to run a business.

License first, than a business.

But I still agree that those breaking the rules hurt us all.

If I may add my 2 cents in here, as for work without a permit, sometimes a neighbor or a realtor is the construction office's best friend. When 1 meighbor sees another doing work, and "How come they don't need a permit, buut I do?" When our office gets a call like that, the Construction Official ( CO) will go out and inspect the job to see if there was work done witout a permit. As John said, then the fines start to fly. Also realtors when looking at a house now come into the CO's office and look for permits for that basement that looks kinda new. They want to make sure the don't sell the property and find open permits for that job.

Apprently, it's not just our industry.....

Three Men Charged in 'Dungeon' Castration
Three Men Charged in 'Dungeon' Castration

CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Three men have been arrested on charges of performing castrations on apparently willing participants in a sadomasochistic "dungeon" in a rural house, authorities said Friday.

"It's extremely bizarre," District Attorney Michael Bonfoey said in a telephone interview. "It's incredible the amount of ways that people can find to run afoul of the law."


Sheriff's investigators said Richard Sciara, 61, Danny Reeves, 49, and Michael Mendez, 60, admitted performing at least eight surgeries, including castrations and testicle replacements, on six consenting clients over the past year. None of the three is licensed to practice medicine, officials said.

The suspects, all residents of the house in Haywood County, in western North Carolina, where the surgeries were allegedly performed, were arrested Thursday. They were being held on $150,000 bond each and could make their first court appearances Monday, Bonfoey said.

The sheriff's office had investigated reports of sadomasochistic acts at the house in 2004, but concluded there was nothing illegal going on because the participants appeared to be willing adults.

Renewed scrutiny, prompted by a citizen who made "strange statements" to Bonfoey, revealed that illegal surgeries were taking place, the prosecutor said.

Detectives who searched the home Wednesday found medical supplies that included scalpels, sutures, bandages, anesthetic and artificial replacement testicles, sheriff's officials said.

Also seized were videotaping equipment, and video recordings of the surgeries, sheriff's officials said. Photos and videos made at the "dungeon" were apparently featured on a locally produced sadomasochistic Web site, officials said.

"This right here beats anything I have ever seen," Sheriff Tom Alexander told the Asheville Citizen-Times, which reported that victims may have come from as far away as South America.

Each man faces 10 felony counts — five each of castration without malice and conspiracy to commit castration without malice — as well as eight misdemeanor counts of performing medical acts without a license. Each felony carries a maximum three years and three months in prison, Bonfoey said.

"Assuming that the victims consented to this — and we don't know that for sure yet — that doesn't make it a defense," Bonfoey said. "We can't have people who are not medical doctors lopping off limbs and other body parts."

___
Copyright 2006, The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP Online news report may not be published, broadcast or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

Generally to be licensed, you need to prove you have a business


Not in my state. You have to have the professional license before you can get a business license. You can only qualify one company per license. Only one license is needed for as many workers as you want. Most of the big EC could not care less if you have a license or not. It iwll gain you nothing unless you want to go out and start a business

Licenses in most professions are intended to protect the general public from being lead into dangerous situations by those who don't possess the skills necessary to do a given job while conforming to current safety standards.

That's why an unlicensed homeowner can do all the wiring (or plumbing) in his own home, subject to permit and subsequent inspection.

Wendel:
NJ State law is 'a homeowner of a single family dwelling that is his primary residence can do his own electrical & plumbing work.' 'He cannot "supervise" someone else doing that work, as he can with the Building and Fire trades.'

The above is NOT verbatum from the UCC, but a litoral translation.

Permits and inspections are required.

John

"It seems to me that if _you_ as a properly licensed EC know someone who you personally feel is a good electrician, but who is not licensed, then you _are_ being petty to sic the law on them."

So i need to follow the law, invest my life savings in a business, pay all my taxes, and then i am PETTY?

I am sure this good electrician is applying for permits on his jobs.

I am sure this good electrician, has liability coverage, workmans comp. and all the other coverages, to protect the homeowner.


Mr Petty

The point of the contractors license is mostly accountability, a minimal level of insurance, and a minimum level of experience.
Many 'electricians' were grandfathered as licensed journeyman without exam here in Texas when licensing took place a year or so ago, regardless of ability. So a license doesn't necessarily guarantee quality or knowledge, just that they are licensed.
Bottom line is that someone (or a contractor) that is licensed now has something to loose if work is not done properly. A handyman or weekender has nothing to loose and proceeds accordingly whether consciously or subconsciously.

festus ---

The constitution of the State of Oklahoma requires electrical work to be done in accordance with ANY nationally recognized electrical code. It allows anyone to do the work.

Most local authorities limit the work that unlicensed people may do to property they own or are tenants at.

The assumption that a license is required to do electrical work is wrong.

I am unlicensed. I apply for electrical permits as necessary. Regardless of how the local authorities act on the permit application, I do the work.

---

I should say that having a law does not mean that the law is constitutional in either a state or federal sense.

LK,

I apologize and retract my use of the word petty.

The issue is anything but petty; this is serious with both lives and livelihoods at stake.

I only used the word petty in response to the following in the post that started this thread:

The point that I was trying to make is that laws requiring electricians are not there as a sinecure. The licence is not there for price support, is not there to restrict competition. The licence is there to provide a legal way for you to demonstrate that you have the skills to provide safe electrical installations.

My opinion is that using the licensing laws to eliminate competition is an ill use of these laws. Use them to eliminate hacks, use them to protect public safety. But it seems to me that if you interact with someone who _is_ a good electrician, but for whatever reason does not have a licence, then the first step is to figure out how to get them into the licence system. If someone is a hack, is taking money from your pocket while endangering others, then I see no problem using the licensing laws to stop them from working.

I also said in context above that I suspect that non-licensed yet well qualified electricians disserving of such 'special treatment' are few and far between. I should have qualified that by limiting such to localities which require licenses, since in a region where licences are not required both the good and the bad will equally not be licensed. As I said above, anyone who has the necessary skills to be a properly qualified electrician probably also has the intelligence needed to jump through the legal licensing hoops.

-Jon

"The licence is there to provide a legal way for you to demonstrate that you have the skills to provide safe electrical installations."

Yes, that is the purpose of the Lic. for the Electrician.

The Lic. laws, were enacted, to protect the consumers, from unsafe electrical installations.

The issue i have, is if there is a law enacted in your state, that requires a Lic. , and someone wants to select which laws, they will follow, then we need protection from the law breakers.

Les & Winnie:
I have to jump back in.

Yes, we have 'hacks' that do elec work without a Lic., and the EC's within NJ should keep their eyes open.

I also have to add that, YES, there are some 'hacks' with the required legal documentation. I'm sorry that I have to say that, but unfortunatley, it's true.

As an AHJ & EC, the purpose of obtaining Licenses is NOT to control the market, it's to protect the consumers. Competition with individuals that have little or no overhead of business expenses is equivilent to trying to clear the sand of of a beach.

John

John,

Well said !

Yes, even with Lic. contractors you run a risk of bad work, so make sure, whoever is doing the work, has applied for permits, and has the job inspected, even if you are doing the job yourself.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 04-06-2006).]

George, i live in Oklahoma, what city or county allows you to pull a permit without an license!The city i live in would not and does not allow unlicensed electricians to pull permits or work on any job large or small without a licensed journeyman or contractor! Also for the record i personally don't believe in the concept of the unlicensed journeyman.If you can't pass the the test then your not a journeyman.Part of being an license electrician is being able to use the most important tool in the trade the code book!

kain10,

He may be talking about, a homeowner, doing his own work, on his property.

Again, my beef is not with non licensed electricians doing side work they pick up from word of mouth communications. They do so at their own risk and the risk of the consumer who has no legal recourse if something is done improperlly. I don't see it, and don't really care. It is not my desire to catch these people.
My complaint is when unlicensed people have the stupidity or audacity to pay for advertising space in publications and actually entrap innocent people into illegally contracting work with them. If I see an ad for electrical work, the first thing I do is check to see if they are licensed. If they are not, then the state board investigators get to earn their paychecks. This is a right to work state, and always lets the unlicensed off with a friendly warning. The ads stop real soon afterwards. I think this is fair, unlike New Jersey, where fines and felony convictions are automatic.

The strange thing in Florida is a person without any license at all is going to make out better with the authorities than someone who is just exceeding his license boundries.
Most enforcement is administrative (actions against your license) and folks without any license at all don't have much to lose.
The trunk bangers usually have to screw up so bad they can be charged with felony fraud before they can attract the attention of the cops and DAs.

How would you fellow sparky's handle this? I am a Journeyman Industrial Electrician. I am always getting asked for advice on resi work. I love the call when someone has work they tried to do themselves and it won't work. I am not licensed as an Electrical Contractor but I have been in the trade for over 25 years. I will usually go over and help them at no cost. I guess I sleep better knowing that after I have corrected the mistake maybe their house won't burn down.

When I worked for my boss back in 1975-1984 he was liscensed and I was not. Did I do side work? Yes, but it was for my parents, my brother and my grandfather, but that was it. I didn't do work for other people because I didn't have a lic., nor did I have insurence in case of a problem. I know that a lot of people have "Friends" who dabble in electrical work and they are not lic., but IF something did happen, will an insurence company pay out if they find out that the person who did the work was did not have a lic. I am not too sure. I am a AHJ now and people still ask me to do side work, BUT I don't have insurence in case something goes wrong. I will not work for anyone without the insurence to back me up.