I'm just in the middle of a service upgrade from an old 60 amp panel to a new 200 amp Siemens. The Home Owner initially wanted a Federal Pioneer (as it's known here in Canada) panel installed because his friends and someone at the big orange box store told him that getting breakers and parts for FPE is far easier and cheaper than anything else, and FPE would be very common for the distant future.

It took quite a bit of convincing with this fellow and about 30 phone calls back and forth to convince him that there were much better products (and safer in my mind) out there. I finally convinced him that at least he could use a Siemens panel because they are commomly available around here too.

Since I'm just getting back into the EC business and dusting off my old Journeyman's Certificate after a 30 year absence, it got me thinking that maybe I should get other opinions on what preferences any of you other younger folks would prefer to see installed in the way of panels.

I know I'm an old dinosaur but I am certainly open to new ideas.

Thanks,
Dave

I personally like Siemens panels the best. My boss only uses Cutler-Hammer and I'm sure there'll be 20 guys on here that say Square-d QO, but I don't think anyone will say GE.

I've found catalogs online for Square-D, Cutler-Hammer, and GE (not very impressive). I search around the Siemens web site, but I could not find their catalog at all, nor any web pages that would be equivalent to a catalog.

In my line of work, which includes designing data centers, I have specified the needed wiring, including the panels. I've gone with Square-D in the past, but today I would include consideration of Cutler-Hammer (and probably specify a choice in each). I wouldn't touch GE. I have no knowledge of the Siemens product line.

Same here. I like Square D QO and I hear a lot about Siemens & C-H, not GE.

Dave

Ok , we used SQ D, and gave that up, when we had call backs, with defective main breakers, never had a problem with any other then Mains in SO D, other then having to chisel out the KO's, that were stamped, with a tired punch.
We also tried Seimans, they wer ok except about every 10, or 12 loadcenters, you could not reset the main, seimans said they never had any complaints, talked to other EC's and they had athe same problem.
We now use CH, and have not had one problem to date.

What kind of bad experiences have people had with GE panels?

Siemens user here.

I like the size of the ground and nuetral bars
vs the other manufacturers....

Although they are mostly BL and BQD types, not typically a resi application...

Dnk...

If Murray is Seimens bastard cousin, I don't like either family. CH makes a really good product for the money IMO. Sq-d too pricey, but good.

Now this: "FPE is far easier and cheaper than anything else, and FPE would be very common for the distant future" They were pretty common until they burned so many homes down in the past here in the US. You'll be hard pressed to see an EC not wince when they hear the name, or hang their heads at sight of one. AKA "Arc welders", and "Never trip" among other names. Close cousin to "Burnt Buss" AKA Zinsco. Both members of the "You need a new panel" family.

I don't do any residential so can't comment on that.But as far as industrial GE has been good to me.Sq d is falling fast from my favorite.

Frank, I have had some issues with the type that accept thins...poor contact and burnt busses, breakers falling out. I haven't had any issues with the style that only accepts full size breakers that attach just like all the common ones. Of course theres the fact that only a GE breaker will fit in a GE panel, although if you are a homeowner or handyman you will be able to fit any kind in there.

Siemens for me. With a name like that it's got to be good. I like the way the ground bars are compared th CH. I did like em more a few years ago whe their were 2 the full length. Also I hate the CH tan color. The Siemens come out the best value when you get everything.

SqD is out of control with the pricing. The breakers are more then double. With ark faults and GFI's it adds up fast. Last I got were made in Mexico. A D panel with breakers raises the price a few hundred in a house.

Tom

most common i used for resdentail usage is Ch and SqD i dont have much trouble with it at all.

For Ge breaker in resdentaial usage ughh i am not too thrilled with it due poor design espcally with mini or thin breakers and the buss is not very strong at all and the other reason why that if ran with thin it is easy to get on wrong voltage. [ common curpit with ge's]

for other usage like Industrail or commercal usage i used CH or SqD or few other as the spec called for.

Merci, marc

I do like Cutler Hammer and Square D, but since they aren't available from my main distributor, we install Siemens 99% of the time. My distributor also pushes GE (a bit cheaper than Siemens), but after trying their panel once I won't install one again. I've always steered clear of FPE.

You know, this thread has got me thinking.....and I think I'll start a new thread, where we can dream about "the perfect panel."

I asked the head of my supplier why they did not sell SqD. He said that SqD would want them to sign an exclusive agreement where that is all they can sell.

I just remembered I got a Siemens with typo error the other day. On the cover the breaker number is stamped next to each one. On the left side near the bottom the numbers go 33, 35, 37, then 36 last. They got the 6 & 9 backwords.

Well I do favour the SQ-D a lot even though they are pricey.. You all are going to think I am nuts but I like the FPE... We have NEVER had a problem with any of their new stuff, although I will admit they are slow to trip, but DO TRIP... When I worked at the supplier I had people coming in that would use EXCLUSEIVELY FPE and nothing else, they were the only ones that seemed to hold up in barns and outbuildings!

Cutler Hammer.. their older resi panels that used bolt on breakers I think were junk... seen too many with the sides of the main breaker burnt out of them!
The push on siemens ITE Cutler... Meh, not fussy about them, I have had some that were so loose they kept falling out of the panel, had some arc and spark to the point where they welded themselves in and I could NOT get them out of the panel. Problem being that chincy aluminum- copper connection between the buss and the breaker... To top it off I dont like the way the lugs on some of the higher amperage breakers hold the conductors.. the lugs dont seem " deep" enough...
The FPE and Sq-D seem to have nice deep lugs that grab the wire and hold very tight..
Ahh well, I have my whining!

A.D

Sq D QO/QOB resi & lite comm. Sq D I-Line, EHB comm.

As to GE...used to be a 'favorite' 'till the cb's came from Mexico. Hated the 'thins', then and still now. GE Dist. (Uhr Northern 7 GE Supply disappeared into the sunset.

Siemens follows Sq D, if the EE specs it; my choice is Sq D.

John

For residential I like Siemens. I like the way the ground and neutral bars are setup. When you bend your wires, the bend is clear of the hot on the breakers. And there is always plenty of spaces on the bars. I also like that the panel cover supports itself when your putting the screws in.

CH is cheaper around here.

It was an adventure doing the service upgrade. It's one of those adventures that will long remain in my memory.

The HO actually liked the look of the new Siemens panel and I also took him to the big orange box store and had him chat with the manager about continuity of supply for future parts. That seemed to ease his mind. He has been advised of all the pro's and con's of different panels and finally agreed wholeheartedly the what was now "his" choice of the Siemens panel was the best choice.

I briefly chatted with the manager after the HO left and when I came out into the store he had a big bag of something he had just purchased. - None of my business or so I thought.

We returned to his home and I started to work on removing the old panel after the POCO had pulled the meter off. I have a little 6kw generator that I can use for temporary lighting and it fired up O.K. in the minus 15 C temps. The next thing I knew the HO put down the bag he had purchased and inside were about 25 nice shiny new octagon boxes with covers. He said I could use those to splice into the existing wiring.!!!!

After a bit of discussion, I told him that I would probably have to replace about 6 or 7 new home runs because of the condition of the NM and "splicing" is just something I would not do. He asked me how that was going to happen and I mentioned that it was probably going to happen the old fashioned way - i.e. fishtape and a drill.

He told me that I would not be doing any replacement of home runs.

So I wrote up my invoice and handed it to him, picked up my generator and walked off the property.

The next morning the HO's wife was on the phone at 07:00. She said I should come back to finish the job. I said that I would not consider it if Mr. HO was going to be around and she advised me that Mr. HO was not to come home until the job was finished - she made him book into a hotel for 4 days and just stay away. I agreed to come back and finish the job but only if I could make it code compliant and done with proper workmanship.

She was in tears when I got there at 09:00 and almost begged me to forgive them for the "advise".

I lugged the generator back out back and hooked it all back up and got to work. I finished the job today and he was "called" home.

He almost fell over with approval when I turned the breakers on.

7 homeruns and lots of fooling around with fishtape and drills (God I hate outside insulated walls) and I was done.

I think next time I get "advise" from an HO before I start a job, I'm going to take the advise of many of you here.

-RUN- Run as fast away as I can.

At least I made about a grand for this 3 day job. Not enough to stay in business for long but better than nothing.

For the various companies I've worked for I've used Square D HOM & QO, Cutler Hammer BR, Siemens QP/Murray MP-T (The same thing with a different label)& the GE THQP styles...

I've done the HOM panels maybe 10 times on jobs far away from my regular supply house, no problems (thankfully, one was 450 miles away in Burlingame). Seemed like a well built panel, and the design was nice. About the same for CH's BR panel.

My supply house carries Siemens, and I've likely hung somewhere around 200 of them in places where Zinsco's, FPE and Bulldogs used to dwell, Never a callback believe it or not

I did work for one contractor that was CRAZY about GE panels, so I used to get them sent to me while I worked for him... The thin breakers seemed flimsy and I was forever breaking that stupid little piece of plastic off the bottom where its supposed to hold it into the panel I've had them fail on me more than once internally, usually a telltale sign of extreme heat is the bubbling and cracking in the side of the breaker where it seems the contacts did not make correctly. After a few callbacks he started sending Cutler Hammer out.. Much better

Preferencewise, I like the Siemens layout, as said before, the neutral/ground bar location is good, and if you should ever need to change the main out, it's not hard to do (Replacement 200A mains are $75 at the Depot last I checked) But the CH and SqD panels have never done me wrong either...

'Siemens QP/Murray MP-T...the neutral/ground bar location is good...'

Unless it is a main panel with a bond between them, AF breakers can only be used on one side. CH has a neutral on each side all the time in thier newer designs.

Personally I am a fan of Cutler-Hammer and of course Square D. I have heard...It may just be rumor...but I have heard that Cutler-Hammer is actually made by Siemens...or vice versa. The guys I used to work with had nothing good to say about Siemens and I don't know why, probably just set in their ways. Personally what little I have used them I have had no problem with them. Do you guys have similar products for use in Canada? or are there completely different brands and codes?

check pilot, you have more patience than I do. I don't think I could ever take a customer to the supply house with me. I also tend to shy away from customers who think that they know how to do the job better than I do.

PDH, here is a link for Siemens. http://www.sea.siemens.com/reselec/product/ms.html

steve

mahlere,

Thanks for your thoughts. This was one job that I learned a few lessons from. I'll chalk it all up to my career as a aviation guy in the past. I got my journeyman certificate in the early 70's and did some work as an electrician then before I left the business after being bitten by the flying bug.

I'm finding that getting back into EC work is a bit difficult because I was used to dealing with highly professional people who would respect the opinions of others and I find that is not the case with some of the clients I deal with now. So I guess I'm and easy sucker for being used by HO's with less than stellar intelligence. The one thing I do have is time on my side, since I do not have to rely on the income from EC work so I'm able to do dumb things like take the time educate the HO so they fully understand the implications of the decisions they make.

I don't think I will go quite so far the next time this kind of situation comes up (and I know it will), but it does provide some comfort to the folks I do the work for when they can see that there is a right way and a wrong way to get a job done. I think it must be working because I've now got jobs booked into the middle of June just by word of mouth references.

Cheers,
Dave

Kurtis, we have basically the same products in Canada....except for one panel Norcal always talks about (and apparently really likes ) which is Zinsco. Siemens, Square D, GE, Cutler Hammer, Federal Pioneer (Federal Pacific in the USA?) among others are quite common here. Our codes here can be somewhat different, though.

Like Zinsco? Yeah right.....

Wait a minute
arnt GE the breakers that do'nt trip
welding 101

It all depends..... The hype is that FPE doesn't trip... I have yet do see that happen, and I am SURROUNDED by FPE... ( The ones here in Canada seem to work fine albeit S..L..O..W to trip)... I have seen GE trip when they shouldn't and westinghouse not trip.... Breakers are a mechanical device, therefore I think they are more prone to failure due to some mechanical problem, than fuses, which simply melt and break the circuit...
But thats just my opinion...


A.D

Perhaps FPE breakers should be considered "Welding Duty" ?