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Posted By: mshaw electrical installation specifications - 01/20/06 06:14 PM
I am developing specifications for E/C's working in my facilities in order to have more uniformity of installations. Before I came here the E/C's ran amock and some of the installations were very trashy as they were cutting costs trying to be the low bidder. So needless to say I need to level the playing field to eliminate miles of mc cable and various manufacturers of componets and attempt to establish guidelines for how I want the E/C's to install the systems, any ideas?
Posted By: mahlere Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/20/06 08:20 PM
yep. duck and run....


there are really only 3 ways to establish uniformity.

1- find a reliable EC and use him. Don't beat him over the head for every nickle and dime. Don't get multiple quotes on simple projects. Let him make money and make sure it's a two way street (that he doesn't look to kill you either) A good symbiotic relationship goes a long way.

2- put everything out to bid with full drawings and spec sheets. This way all prices are apples to apples.

3- have a list of do's and don'ts. No MC. EMT only. etc. This is the hardest way to do it. You spend more time meeting with different contractors to explain your rules than they do performing the work.

As a contractor, I prefer option 1. If i know that you are not constantly looking for a cheaper price, I'll give you everything i have and then some.
Posted By: Radar Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/20/06 09:16 PM
Ditto Mahlere - you're better off with #1 if you can. For the effort it will take to make your projects air-tight (scope wise), you might as well hire some sparky's and do the work yourself.

There are canned specs available, they need to be edited to suit your situation. I'm sure other folks here can provide information regarding how to get these.

Our engineers here pretty much don't design much of anything anymore - our construction solicitations going out are mostly design/build, and we're not too good about defining existing conditions, and sometimes we even want the bidder/contractor to determine the base contract requirements. This is for firm fixed price contracts for work that is uncertain. We transfer as much risk as possible from us to the bidder/contractor.

One problem with this - we frequently have trouble obtaining bidders for projects. Wonder why (duh)?

Radar
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/20/06 09:27 PM
Bravo mahlere, well said......

Dnk...
Posted By: Ron Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/20/06 09:55 PM
Purchase a set of the template specifications, and pick out the pieces that you are passionate about such as requiring certain raceway types for certain work, or steel compression fittings, or compression terminations, or ....
Be sure to only pick out general items, because if you don't you will need to tailor the list to each project which would be best done by a design engineer.
The ones we use are http://www.arcomnet.com/visitor/masterspec/ms.html
Posted By: Dave T Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/20/06 10:50 PM
I have read specifications for years and some were very constrictive while others were not. The very constrictive specs were very detailed and, as such were quite lengthy. Lengthy specs do take time to put together, as they must be thought out. But, they don't necessarily have to be entirely rewritten for every project. Some projects that I have worked on had specifications that very detailed but standard for the customer. The customer provided the drawings and one-line, I did the "take-off" using product that complied with the specs. The contractor was responsible for and installation that complied with the spec.
You've really got to start with looking at your whole distribution system an deciding on the manufacturer that you are going to standardize on and be product specific. Then you must be clear about the work that you would want do and how it is to be installed. Remember that the NEC and local codes should determine installation standards and techniques but the gray area would be in the quality of the installation. This is where you would have to consider the contractors track record with regard to the quality of work that they do.
But keep in mind that everybody is looking for a cheep price. You start limiting the their options and you will have less bidders and higher quotes. But, you get what you pay for. If you want to standardize on a specific product that limits competition. By specifying installation techniques you should get a better installation but that will come at a price also.
Posted By: LK Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/21/06 12:26 AM
"Before I came here"

Where did i hear that before, just about every electrician, can tell you that story, let me guess, there undersized feeders all over the building, sub panels fed from subs, more J-boxes then you can count, and usually without covers, MC cable running across the ceiling in every direction, unmarked panels, and abandoned wiring all over the place.

No such thing as cheap, and good.

I remember, one high rise manager that always put out bids looking for the best prices, well they got them, and just about every job they had done, had to be tore out and done over, cheap at twice the price must of been their motto.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-20-2006).]
Posted By: Redsy Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/21/06 02:57 AM
Buy these, and insist that they be followed.
It will help separate the professionals from the hacks.
http://www.neca-neis.org/
Posted By: e57 Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/21/06 08:45 PM
Some well worded general electrical notes are not that hard to come up with.... They after all are your prefferances.
Posted By: Bill39 Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/21/06 09:10 PM
If yours is an industrial location the NFPA 79. Good examples of prints are given in it also.

If anything it is a little too strict, which will drive the installation cost up.
Posted By: Bill39 Re: electrical installation specifications - 01/21/06 09:12 PM
Oops, forgot to paste in the link to the NFPA 79 site:
http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=79&cookie%5Ftest=1
I believe it was John Ruskin who said "there is not a product or service that cannot be done cheaper by someone....and those who consider price only are this mans' lawful prey."

Asking for bids is often asking for trouble. The first challenge is comparing apples to apples; it is amazing how different are the concepts that can come from one set of plans!
The first step for the customer is knowing what they want. If you want a certain brand panel, say so. If you want expensive switches, say so. If you expect to make additional changes next year (to what is installed today), say so!
Be clear as to what will happen after the job is complete. Will you call the same guy for service- or have your own maintenance guys do it?

A different approach is to invite different contractors to submit designs, given the proposed final room and equipment layout of the job. See what they come up with; one might try to tie into existing circuits, while another will set a sub-panel.
You're not looking for price here, as much as a mind-set, an understanding of your needs by the contractor. You probably won't like the design put forth by the low bidder!


Both Deming and Tom Peters have documented the advantages of long-term relationships between a customer and a vendor. The arguments also apply here....you are most likely to get what you want when you and the contractor are operating from the same premises, have open communication, and an interest in what happens tomorrow. Asking for bids defeats this whole happy arrangement- instead making every job appear as a one-shot deal, or game-playing by the customer. Ironically, the result of this is often a greater expense for the customer.
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