Both the NFPA and the IAEI are agressively pursuing a program to make the NEC, as well as other standards we use, "international."
These activities seem to presume that "our" way is the only sensible way. I have some problems with that assumption.
Consider this: recently posted on this page was the "Swedish Electrical Code," translated into English. Swedes only seem to need a few pages for their code; compare this to the hundreds in the NEC.

I would like to get a discussion started aout the very idea of "global harmonization." Is it a good idea- or tilting at windmills? Are the various electrical systems too different? Has the NEC become too specific? Perhaps we ought to adopt THEIR codes instead?

The relentless pressure to lower manufacturing costs via global markets will move this forward.

International, at this stage, may mean nothing further than getting Canada and America on the same page.

With that done, Mexico would be next. The idea being that a free trade zone only works for our industry if manufactured goods can be installed to the same general scheme in all three countries.

The concern driving this is the French/German scheme to exclude out American manufactures via their building standards. They put you in the position of being able to import freely: but unable to install anything.

This is a trend toward mega-commercial competition via trading blocks: North America vs Europe.

Don't look for our NEC to cross the Atlantic. That's not the internationalization that is in the cards.

The Swedes don't have as many lawyers. I also think the whole NFPA standards process is aimed at little more than selling books.

They make this way too complicated and try to codify every possible situation. What ever happened to trade knowlege and common sense?

quote"What ever happened to trade knowlege and common sense?"

It is all stored away in the violations forum.

While global harmonization could be a good thing, I wouldn’t hold my breath in expectation for it to happen anytime soon, even for North America. While the electrical systems in Canada and the US are similar, many of our standards in Canada are much different than those of our American neighbors’. Regulations even differ from province to province. With these differences, I would think that it would be virtually impossible to come to an agreement on who’s standards are best and which ones to adopt into a common Electrical Code.

Just my 2¢ worth.

As many of you know, Britain has been moving toward a common European standard in recent years, much to the dismay of many of us who are seeing standards which have served us well for years swept aside in the rush to "harmonize" everything (look at the comments in Non-U.S. about the new color code as an example).


That sums it up very succinctly. CENELEC and the other European standards bodies would never countenance the NEC becoming a standard over here. ("It's American, you know." ).

Companies like SquareD sell in both USA and Europe, but only NEC style stuff in USA, and only DIN rail (etc) style stuff in Europe.

I don't want to start an argument here but I don't really think that this would be a feasible idea.
Considering that different countries use a different system of supply, different voltages, different methods of protecting thier systems, not to mention the differences in connectors the world over.
If you had to encompass all of that, the final document would be huge.
Any suggestion of a common (universal) standard, is bound to put somebodies nose out of joint.
Just my $0.02 worth.

It can be done, but it would take a complete rewrite of the two basic codes used into one document. Much space in the NEC is taken up by tables that in other codes are found in separate standards.

Side note: I'm working on a little PDF that merge the different ampacity tables of the European and American codes into tables that cover both mm2 and AWG. Originally, I just wanted a simple comparison. It wasn't that simple and now it has grown into a 13 page document that covers ampacities, derating factors, installation methods and comments...

Maybe the correct question is: Which standard will be preferred by the Chinese?

Forming together with India almost half of this planet's population and being a future market to be densely electrified.

The "money heaps" don't care at all about standards, nor about work for their own people. American money is earning a lot in Europe with IEC products. And the other way round.

With regard to American wire gauges I think the answer is obvious: Europe will never return to elbows, feet and thumbs to measure distances.

Then the NEC reflects a lot of local history and conditions. This will remain different by nature, like the 50 <-> 60 Hz.

Furthermore: Nobody should believe that a German electrician will be able to work f.i. in Belgium or Netherlands without a lot of learning (5km/8km from my home). Code is completely different, the different language is the least issue with regard to that. Just the material and the basic rules are the same.

"Maybe the correct question is: Which standard will be preferred by the Chinese?
Forming together with India almost half of this planet's population and being a future market to be densely electrified."

China, is building a city the size of Philadelphia every month, a pace unheard of in recent times, they will meet or exceed us in the very near future, it would be intresting to see, just what codes, and standards they have in place, here is a link on NEMA's entry into China, http://www.nema.org/media/pr/20040507a.cfm



[This message has been edited by LK (edited 11-14-2005).]

Both China and India are involved in the "European" standardisation process in IEC. The previous Chinese president, Jiang Zemin, is an electrical engineer who worked with the IEC back in the 1970's.

It's insteresting, considering China uses various plug & connector standards.

One of them is the American two-flat parallel pin plug for Class 2 apps.

I would expect China to use US style equipment, just because that is where most of the US equipment comes from. That must be the biggest market they serve, thus what they make the most of.

I would expect China to use IEC style equipment, just because that is where most of the European equipment comes from. That must be the very biggest market they serve, thus what they make the most of.

They are too many I fear.

Considering that the US still uses single wires for wire-pulls.
Most of the work we do here in New Zealand are Multi-Cores (as in either 3-phase+ EGC, or 3-Phase+ Neutral and Earth (ground)).
We "sleeve" the whole part of the installation, as it pretains to cables running down poles, from a 400/230V transformer. (11 or 22kV Primary)
If you can damage a Neutral-Screened cable with 0.125" outer insulation on it, you need to find another job.
Skinning any sort of wire during installation is just poor workmanship.
But, the point I'm trying to make is, why do things have to be made harder, just because they were done like this 50 or so years ago?.

Wolfgang, perhaps I should have said US, Canada and Mexico that all use NEMA standard stuff ;-)
I suspect with the building boom we have here the amount of equipment is larger than mere population would suggest. My wife is building 3000-4000 square foot "2d" and "3d" homes for people. We do have a lot of Europeans building houses here tho. Does that count?

Take another thing,
Fluorescent tubes, the nomenclature of the tubes is totally different in the US as to what they are here, not because of voltage either.
A T8/5/840 here could mean a lot of things in the US.

Interesting that the "T8" part of the nomenclature has hung on in other parts of the world, while everything else has gone metric.

The "8" is the number ot eighths of an inch of diameter, with T8 lamp being 1" diameter. I wonder why the rest of the world hasn't started calling them "T25" or something similar....

[This message has been edited by NJwirenut (edited 11-17-2005).]

I think China will just turn out stuff to whatever standard is used wherever they want to sell.

BS1363 is used only in the U.K., Ireland, and a few small British-inlfuenced island nations such as Hong Kong, Malta, etc., yet China turns out plugs and adapters for our connectors (however much we wish they wouldn't ).

Paul, that's the rub. With their present ethic of 'get it out the door as cheap as possible', it might be decades before they start using 'standards' as a route to consumer safety.

As to an 'NEC based' standard for Europe, laudable, but it will never happen while the French have a veto. Where are the people who think grounding a house is ok via the telephone line going to find thousands of competant inspectors, let alone electricians willing or even able to wire to a Code?
( I nearly said "England!!" then!:- They had to import hundreds of Brit linesmen after the 1999/2000 tempest blew down nearly every pole in N France. Hush! Whisper who Dares, Jacques Chirac is having Nightmares! )

Alan

Ah, isn't it comforting to know that EDF now owns some of our utilities?


Please tell me you're kidding.....

O.K., I know that being France anything's possible on the wiring, Sounds like an interesting story behind that one though! Even ignoring the resistance of 5 miles of #22 conductors, didn't whoever did this realize that neither side of the phone line is actually grounded anyway?




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 11-19-2005).]

Alan, they have inspectors.
See http://www.consuel.com

And the grounding is done at least in 6mm2. Why so negative?

Wolfgang

Seems that most states in the us have different requirements for installation, as does Australia. I would be very happy if we could agree to have laws and licenses standardised just in Australia as im sure would you in the US and most other places. Seems strange we want to make things the same globally when we cant agree locally! You only have to read the differing opinions here to realise it probably wont ever happen. On the other hand I dont believe for a second that we can legislate out stupidity with rule books. Most dodgy things i see here are done by unlisensed people who wouldnt know a wiring rules book if you beat them with it.

I have been in IAEI meetings where inspectors in the same department dissagreed about what was legal. I pity the poor contractor in that situation.