Today at work a plumber was shocked and I think he's lucky to be alive. He was cutting into a 2" copper line with a sawzall that was plugged into a gfi. Water was runnig all over the tool. I was on the seen just in time to see him jump of the ladder. Visibly he seemed quite shaken. I unplugged his extension cord wondering why the gfi didn't trip and found the ground pin had been broken off. Anyways, I threatened to cut it up if it wasn't repaired which caused a bunch of drama at the job today.
Has anyone had to destroy anyone else's cord because it was unsafe. How far would you take an issue like this? Being the electricians on the job we obviously have the obligation to keep everyone "electrically safe"

While an intact grouinding pathway would have minimized or prevented the shock, a GFCI device does not depend on the EGC to operate. They're effective on non-grounded equipment, too.

I suspect a defective or miswired GFCI.

Just got done mentioning in another post that GFI's and water don't mix well. Ground pin missing or not, it should have tripped, however is no guarantee of working 100% of the time.

As for the guys cord... Let him take his life into his own hands. If he's dumb enough to still use it after today, maybe he wants to die. As for the scene you made, did the GC catch any of it? After all it is his 'Comp, and liability that is on the line just as much as the Plumbers on site.

Side note: Years ago there was an Inspector around here that would give me the "Talk to the Hand" and walk right by me when I met him at the door or gate. And then go searching the whole site for frayed cords on site before he would start the inspection. He would start writing the red tag while you removed it from the site completely. Temp outlets before rock instead of a site box, just grab the meter and walk off with it. I'm glad that guy is gone, just for the bad additude, not for his concerns.

I don't think it's our job to be the electrical police on job sites unless we are running that job or it has to do with our own work. I'd tell the plumber that the cord could get him killed, if he don't fix it then he's an idiot. Cutting someones cord may cause you to end up on the wrong side of a pipe wrench.

I know that having the grounding pin wouldn't of prevented him from getting shocked. Espeacialy when the tool was double insulated and did not have a grounding cord.
Say someone did seriously get hurt and OSHA shows up. Couldn't the electrical contractor be fined along with the plumbing contractor?

Five years ago I was a foreman on a school job. For some reason the school safety people decreed that I would inspect and mark with colored tape every cord used on the job by all trades. The safety person also made it crystal clear that if they found an unmarked cord or a marked cord that was unsafe they would shut the job down.

I must have cut a couple dozen cords in half.

Got a lot of mean looks and even a few threats but the bottom line was the safety people really would shut the job down if they found an unsafe cord. So when it came down to it all the foreman in the other trades understood my position.

Have not worked on a job like that since and hope I never have to. It was different because the school district had "self insurance" for workers comp and they had thier own rules and safety people.

Another rule, one contractor could not use a ladder belonging to another contractor. We could only use ladders supplied by our own company. Same with man lifts and scaffolds. One time the safety people caught the brick masons using the plasterers scaffold and shut them down. There was nothing wrong with the scaffold, just that it was not thiers.

I work in a cement plant and we are governed by MSHA and CAL-OSHA. The safety and HR guy has decreed that according to MSHA and CAL-OSHA that all cords on plant site have to be inspected for nicks, cuts, burns, exposed conductors and proper grounds yearly. We inspect and tag everything that has a cord on the plant site. Wether it is 110 V or 480 V cords. We don't inspect contractor cords outright, but if we see one that does not pass our criteria, it is cut up right then and there. The contractors know this will happen since they receive a copy of our safety policies and are told about are cord policy. If it is an easy fix, such as replacing a cord cap, we will usually do so.

Tim

The GFI doesn't need the EGC to operate but it does give the fault a more attractive path than going through the plumber (a fairly high impedance path).
~4ma is not enough to trip a GFI but it can make you dance. That is not a good thing to be doing on a ladder.
I suspect the EGC would have been a sufficiently low impedance path to trip the GFI. Your diagnosis was right.
My favorite builder will tell anyone they have to get unsafe equipment off her jobs. That can be bad cords, homebuilt ladders or improvised scaffolding. Those OSHA fines and insurance bills will seriously impact your bottom line. As an electrician you might not be able to cut up a bad cord but you can certainly point it out to the job super.
Let the super be the safety cop. It's their butt in the sling in the end anyway.

If the guy wanted to get nasty it could also get you on the wrong side of the law. Over here, the deliberate and willful destruction of somebody else's property is legally classed as "criminal damage." I'm sure there must be similar laws in just about every state of the Union.

When I see a battered up cord I explain the dangers involved and suggest a remedy. If the damage is repairable by, say, just chopping off a couple of feet and reterminating the ends, I'll offer to make the repair myself in the interests of safety.

I read a story somewhere (maybe on this very message board) about an EC who was called out for an appliance repair in a business. He found an extremely unsafe condition with the appliance, so to keep it from being used until he could fix it, he cut the cord off. Business owner called the cops, and the EC ended up facing some charges over it.

I've been on jobs where the safety guys cut up cords that weren't GFCI protected by some means. The only problem was that this guy--who was in charge of safety, remember--would cut through the cords without even unplugging them, using just a standard pair of Kleins. He was depending entirely on the CB and the PVC handles of the Kleins to keep him safe. He snipped one cord where the CB failed to trip and the fault current blew the jaws of the Kleins appart and took out the temporary power for the whole site.
Nothing like leading by example.


-John

There is a reason some folks are thought of as "safety nazis."
It is, quite simply, wrong and illegal to take the law into your own hands. Cut up my cord? Can you post bail? Don't I have the right to protect my property? Now, if a job super wants to order a piece of equipment removed- well, that's different.

Everybody thinks they're in charge. That is not the case. And there are too many "experts" out there whose holy crusade is inspired by that three hour seminar they attended last month.

Safety equipment- whether it be a hard hat or a GFI- is not intended to allow you to deliberately create a dangerous situation.

I doubt the plumber could do his job without ever getting electrical tools and water together from time to time. He should know this, and do what he can to protect himself. This means tools in good repair, GFI protection, making sure he's not grounded, etc. Still, doo-doo happens. To quote Frederick the Great: "Do you think you can live forever?"

I haven't seen a three-wire sawzall-type tool in decades. With a two-prong cord on the tool, the presence or absence of a ground pin on the extension cord is irrelevant.

Milwaukee sells a sawzall with three wire cord. I agree with most of the replies on here. Mention it to the job super and be done with it. If someone wants to use an unsafe cord let them learn the hard way. You shouldn't have to waste your own time patrolling for unsafe extension cords.

I'm wondering if just politely explaining the dangers of a damaged cord-set, pointing out the damage and probably offering to repair the plumber's extension-cord (replacing a 3 dollar cord cap can't possibly be a big deal) might have been more effective than threatening to slice up the thing.

But then again that's me. Attitude gets you nowhere in some cases, ya know?

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 11-05-2005).]

You can get a very painful poke from a gfi.5ma is more than enough to send you to your death off a ladder.Who's responsible if that cord gets plugged into a non gfi receptacle and another trades man grabs it by a skinned wire to move it out of the way and fries.i have been instructed in the past to remove the dangerous equipment and or the the contractor from the site in such instances.If he dies or kills someone else because of his stupidity his insurance pays.If he's not insured the liability totally becomes ours.It is the owner/reps responsibility to have properly skilled/insured contractors on site around here.Fools like this cost builders millions a year.One reported complaint can shut the site down while the AHJ picks apart your operation.I say hang him from his faulty cord.Accidents happen but if someone gets hurt because of a known safety issue shame....Be sure your end of the circuits are perfect before any knuckle heads use them.

[This message has been edited by frank (edited 11-05-2005).]

Federal Pacific?

Believe it or not (it is your choice to believe it, but ignorance is "bliss", will not work in these cases), it is mandated by OHSA that the electrical contractor on construction jobsites be responsible for checking all electrical cords for all other trades. I am not sure how or why that determination evolved, but it is a fact.

Every cord is to be check by continuity, and visual to make sure all of the conductor/contacts are in proper order, and the insulation (outer cord) is to be visually checked - the best part is this is to be documented.

If you do not want to believe this, that is fine, but sticking your head in the sand leaves your BUTT in the air for target practice.

We all know what goes on, and that is because no one is policing this, but one day it will bite someone.
A Construction worker was killed on a jobsite recently where we work - the temporary wiring was a mess, and his cord was nicked. He was electrocuted when the damaged portion of his cord was in a puddle, and he walked into the puddle.

When I hear more, I will let you know what happens, who is sued, etc...

Stallcup has a couple of books written in english that make this topic a little easier to understand, and find the proper requirements.

[This message has been edited by PCBelarge (edited 11-06-2005).]

Pierre,


I have to dispute that, I was always told the same thing. It turns out that is not the case at all.

Please check out these links to OHSA Standard Interpretations.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=250 46
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. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=250 11

The basic upshot of these OSHA Standard interpretations is this.

It is not the ECs responsibility to provide or maintain GFCIs or the assured grounding program for anyone but their own employees.

It is the drywalling company that has to make sure their employees use GFCIs or assured grounding, it is the roofing company that has to make sure their employees follow the rules.

It makes much more sense this way because I have no authority as an electrician to inspect other trades tools or put those tools out of service. (Unless this is contained in contract documents)

Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 11-06-2005).]

Seems to me that if that were the law, it would be grossly unfair for the EC to be responsible for every bit of junk that somebody else brings on site, quite probably without his knowledge.

Paul, our OSHA gives us two choices when it comes to temporary jobsite power.
Choice #1 is the liberal use of GFI protection of circuits. With the affordability of GFI's, this is pretty much a no-brainer.

Choice #2 is to have an "assured grounding program," which involves inspections of all cords and equipment- and the accompanying documentation.

Yes that is clear, the question has become who must enforce / supply / maintain either of those programs.

IMO, OSHA regs do not require the EC on site to be the safety police for every other contractor.

Bob

As tempted as it may be to cut up someone elses cord that just isn't right.
You going to dismantle thier ladder because the side is cracked, the studs are mission the rungs...

I had a GC come to me once, tell me that the outside GFI under the panel wasn't working.
Breaker tripped... Well I look at one of the cords plugged in.

Bout 3 different places along the cord the outer sheething is ripped off, and the individual conductors insulation is ripped off, the individual conductors are twisted together and just laying there, not even taped or anything, just bare copper.

The inspector looks at it, laughs and is like "Yeah, they are stupid".
He did nothing so I'm like huh, go inside naturally none of the carpet guys that was using the cord speak english, I grab a translater and tell her to inform that if they use that cord again I'm gonna cut it up.

But they never used it again, saw the guy throw it in the trash.

It seems like MI-OSHA, does a walk through on just about every job I've been on in the last five years. The majority of those jobs have been in auto plants and Osha comes through about once a week.
Everytime they show up, they check cords and cut ends off any that aren't in proper condition.
I think in some instances, it really needs to be done but, not neccesarily by the electrician on the job.
Remember, you can protect the fool but not the damn fool.
I would say, our responsibility ends with our equipment and our installations.
If the plumbers want to act like idiots and work with wet power tools without checking the GFI or asking the electrician to check it, they deserve what they get.
It's everyones responsibility to ensure their own safety on the job.

I would remind all that GFCI's are not psychic and don't know the loads that they are sourcing. Is it possible that this gentleman was on a non-conductive ladder and not part of a fault path at all??? What if his wet tool let moisture in through cooling vents and got to the brushes??? If he was just a parralel current path to the motor, the GFCI wouldn't sense a differential current through its coil and cause a trip signal.

I was on a job were the tile setter saw kept tripping the temp-panel breaker. I try ed to explain to them that a 16AWG cord extended 80ft should be at least 12AWG. Because of lack of a translator, all i got were blank stars. GC was no help said it was my problem