Dear Friends,
Sincere best wishes to all of you! I am presently working as a journeyman electrician on the remodeling of an exhibit/shop/promotion for Coca-Cola at Walt Disney World ("CLUB COOL"). On Thursday the job foreman displayed concern that some pendant light fixtures had been installed and the 1" X 8-32 machine screws provided by the manufacturer had not been used to attach the fixture plate to the 4" to round plaster ring mounted on the outlet box. Instead (in most instances) , we had used 1/2" X 8-32 machine screws (industry standard, and produced by a major manufacturer) to secure the fixture plate to the plaster ring. In every instance there was direct metal to metal contact between the fixture plate and plaster ring, and at least 1/4" of the machine screw was visible inside of the box. However, the foreman claimed that since the 1" X 8-32 machine screws provided by the fixture manufacturer was not used, this was a potential violation of the UL listing of the light fixture and potentially exposes the electrical contractor (and individual electrician) to increased liability. Now, of course, there was no question that unauthorized "field alterations" to fixtures, devices or other equipment will, in fact, violate the provisions of that items UL listing. For instance, failing to use the provided light fixture installation plates will render the UL listing invalid because such plates are necessary for heat dissipation, grounding and/or other purposes. But, the specific issue here was whether or not the act of not using the factory provided screws was a violation. Have you any specific knowledge or comments concerning this issue. If possible, a speedy answer would be very much appreciated. Thank you very much and take care!

(personal contact info removed - replies can be made here or through the email link ( ) provided)

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 10-22-2005).]

You want an official answer, you'll have to go to UL.

As I understand the UL standards, the manufacturer is required to supply hardware...things like wire nuts and screws. You are NOT required to use those specific parts- they just have to be there, in the box.

Sillyest thing I ever heard. What if you needed longer screws? Other than the fact that they are 8/32's I see no bearing on the listing.

For instance, failing to use the provided light fixture installation plates will render the UL listing invalid because such plates are necessary for heat dissipation, grounding and/or other purposes.

Even that's a stretch. Depends what the plate is. Most fixtures use a standard mounting arrangement and there are a few plates or bars that are variously supplied, each as good as the other.

Sometimes one type will work better or the original became lost in which case I see no problem with using something other than what was supplied.

Nowadays nobody gives you hardware to mount a fixture by a hickey. What do you do then?

-Hal



[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited 10-22-2005).]

I regularly throw away the wirenuts that come with the fixtures that don't have the spring coils inside them and use a real wirenut. I guess I'm violating the UL listing.

I'm gonna tell!

Unless the screw were something special.... Like stainless, or some other type of alloy, for the specific purpose of bearing shock, vibration, of additional weight, then I could see an issue. But if that were the case, you you would be using a larger screw anyway. Like a #10 or 1/4/20, and lock-tight.

And yes, I often don't bother with them, (the ones that come with fixtures.) they are usually of inferior quality.

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 10-23-2005).]

Since you can sue anybody for anything, anything that you do exposes you to potential liability. *grin*

The only part of the screw that is 'doing any work' is the part that extends from the head to the part that is engaged in the thread, and perhaps a tinsy bit past to support the last bit of engaged thread. The rest of the screw is just 'extra'.

One could argue that using a longer screw than necessary is 'bad workmanship' because the extra length of screw could puncture conductor insulation. If you go and change all of these screws to the supplied length, and damage a wire, then you would be exposed to potential liability for following poor installation practise.....

-Jon

I end up going the other way a lot, using shorter screws. If you have an EMT connector in a handy box the device screws are going to be too long.
(I still like sleeving NM on a block wall vs the standoffs)
I know you can cut them but it is just as easy to simply use the right screw in the first place. I agree with E57, the screws included with equipment is more likely to be chosen based on price than quality. Some are very crude and not even a good fit in the threads.

It's been my experience that the fixture screws seem to be metric because they don't grip the box threads properly. I think you could (and should) argue that using alternate screws is better than the original.

I really don't think the UL listing was affected by alternate screws. What would you do if the box had 10/24 screw holes? Use the 8/32's just because they came with the fixture...I don't think so.

I wish I had kept all the 8/32 screws I have just thrown away over the years. I could sell em back to China now that they need scrap so bad.

... Shockmaster21,... you mentioned that you guys used 1/2" 8-32's in a 4" plaster ring... did you re-tap the holes?? a common plaster ring usually is threaded for 6-32 screws.. were you using "1900" 4" square boxes or 4" octagonal boxes in the ceiling??
I'm just trying to get a mental picture of your installation..
Russ

AR, A 3" round x 4" square plastering will have 8-32 holes.

I think that even today, except in the extreme, outlandish cases that the media hypes, most lawsuits are settled in a reasonable way. If using the 8-32 screws is indeed "industry standard practice", which it is, there would not be a liability issue any more so than usual. I think the foreman in this case is being a bit overzealous, but, he's the boss.

[This message has been edited by BobH (edited 10-25-2005).]

Hi, all,
Thanks for your input and insight. As I thought, exploring this issue has proven to be interesting and informative. FYI, here are some comments from UL and NEMA. Sorry about the length.
=====================================
An authorized use of the UL Mark is a manufacturer’s declaration that a product was originally manufactured in accordance with the applicable requirements when it was shipped from the factory. When a UL Listed product is modified after it leaves the factory, UL has no way to determine if the product continues to comply with the safety requirements used to certify the product without investigating the modified product. UL can neither indicate that such modifications “void” the UL Mark, nor that the product continues to meet UL’s safety requirements, unless the field modifications have been specifically investigated by UL. It is the responsibility of the regulatory authority to determine the acceptability of the modification or if the modification is significant enough to require one of UL’s Field Engineering Services staff to evaluate the modified product. UL can assist the regulatory authority in making this determination.

If a party would like UL to determine if the modifications made to a UL Listed product comply with UL requirements, the appropriate Field Engineering Service can be initiated to investigate the modifications. This investigation will only be conducted after UL consults with the regulatory authority to assure that UL’s investigation addresses all areas of concern and meets all of the regulatory authority’s needs.

A field evaluation of a product can also be performed by UL for field certification of products that have not previously been evaluated or certified by UL. - From THE CODE AUTHORITY:ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS (August - 2004) published by the Regulatory Services Department of Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.
======================================

Unless otherwise noted, the UL Mark applies to a product as it is originally manufactured—that is, as it left the factory. An exception to this is when a product has markings or instructions for such modifications (i.e., adding grounding kits for panelboards or trim rings for recessed luminaries). Only authorized accessories should be used.
Note: A modification may be intentional ( such as a repair) or accidental (such as dropping the product). UL cannot know what effect any modification (alteration, repair or accident) may have on safety, code compliance, performance on the continued UL certification of the product unless specifically evaluated by UL. - From THE CODE AUTHORITY:ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS (July 2004) published by the Regulatory Services Department of Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.


=========================================

RE: [FEEDBACK] TECHNICAL QUESTION

Thanks for contacting NEMA with you question regarding support of luminaires.

First and foremost, the manufacturer's instructions provided with each luminaire should be read and followed as required in 110.3(B) of the NEC. If the screws that are provided with the product are critical as to length, strength, corrosion protection or material, it will state that and no substitution should be made. In addition, the manufacturer may provide components with the product that are not required by the standard or the listing for the convenience of the installer, or may substitute components that exceed the minimums required by the listing. An example might be the twist-on wire connectors supplied with many luminaires. Often these connectors are small and suitable only to connect the fixture wire to a single supply conductor. If the supply consists of several conductors, a different connector may be substituted in order to make a safe and compliant installation. In cases such as this, the manufacturer provided the connectors as a convenience.

The standard used to evaluate luminaires for use in the United States is UL 1598. The section on proper installation of a surface mounted luminaire, Section 7.2, states:
"7.2 Mounting means
7.2.1
A luminaire intended to be directly mounted to an outlet box shall be provided with two No. 8-32 machine screws if the luminaire surface containing the mounting screw holes is more than 3.2 mm (0.125 in) from the mounting surface. The length of each screw shall be at least 13 mm (0.5 in) plus the distance from the mounting surface to the luminaire surface that contains the screw holes."

Please note that this section of the standard refers to luminaires mounted directly to an outlet box, not to a pendant type luminaire. I could find no reference specifically to mounting a pendant luminaire, so I am using the above as a general requirement. Note that the section requires the manufacturer to provide two 8-32 machine screws, and that the length must be .5 inches plus the distance to cover any recess from the surface to the threaded holes in the box. It is entirely possible that the manufacturer provided longer screws to address situations where the distance from the box to the mounting surface is up to .5 inches, in which case the screw provided will still comply with the standard. If this distance is less than .5 inches, then other length screws would also comply with the standard.
In conclusion, I can offer the following:

1. The manufacturer's installation instructions must be followed. If the provided screws are required to be used in the instructions, than no substitutions should be allowed.
2. Absent any specific instructions, then substitution of a different length screw should not result in any reduction in safety for the installation, provided that:
A) The screw has full engagement of all threads into the threaded holes in the box.
B) The screw meets or exceeds the manufacturer's screw in terms of strength, diameter, and corrosion protection.

I hope this helps to address your concern. Please understand that the information provided here is general in nature and should not be used to override the manufacturer's instructions or listing requirements.



[This message has been edited by shockmaster21 (edited 10-30-2005).]

I'm finding many of the screws supplied with fixtures and fans these days are slightly smaller than a true 8/32 and strip out very easily.
I have started to use longer screws in fans to allow a home owner to notice it coming loose from the ceiling giving him time to get it corrected before it drops. Most of these fixtures that have these loose fitting screws are made in China and not getting reported to UL.
Are others finding the same loose screws?

Hurk look at my post above.

Hurk-

You've encountered the "Chinese Standard" screw... a 6-32 winds up being 5.75-31, and a 10-24 is actually 9.87-21.

And no, they're not metric. I've got a full kit of M standard and they didn't fit right either.

Of course, the makers of the screwdriver style tap tools are probably giddy over this influx... I know it's why I bought my Klein 6-in-1.

I just spent 9 days in Orlando area and was at several Disney parks

I'm truly amazed at the Electrical, Plumbing HVAC, landscaping etc involved in Disney World. I was there during Hurricane Wilma and they shut down for part of that day(monday) and opened later in the afternoon. They take in 70 million dollars a day in Orlando area parks

Hello Walrus,
The electrical contractor that I am presently working for cancelled work the day that Hurricane Wilma passed through. We have been working four 10 hour days (Mon-Thurs)on this particular project so we had to work the following Friday to make up for the lost day. Indeed, walt Disney World can be a facinating place to work as well as visit. I have worked at Disney World on several occasions and I am always amazed. You can find things there that an electrician could work a lifetime and never encounter. I have not personally seen any estimates as to how much money these Central Florida Theme Parks actually take in. However,I do not at all doubt your figures.

I have to laugh at the Chinese standard screws....I've used them a few times but never for a heavy fixture or fan. They are almost as good as those wire connectors that are included with fixtures.

The fact that this is even a discussion illustrates how the lawyers have ruined this country. Ridiculous.

... These are the greatest... I have a few kits on each truck,and if you break one,you can order that one tap..it's ingenious!!



They're made by Greenlee..they drill and tap in one shot!!



[This message has been edited by Attic Rat (edited 10-31-2005).]

Hello Electricmanscott,
Indeed, you are so very correct. Lawsuits arise today over the most petty of circumstances. However, discussions such as this are not truly ridiculous because if an electrical contractor and/or individual electrician ever becomes the defendant in such a lawsuit (however spurious the grounds) it then becomes a very serious and expensive matter. So, having an accurate knowledge of such issues can serve as a guide and protection. This is one of the benefits of this forum.
The most definitive answer to date comes from an e-mail sent to me from a Senior Customer Service Engineer(Lighting)with Underwriters Laboratories. He states:

"The length of the screws packaged with the luminaire takes into account that there are installations that involve different spacings between the luminaire and the junction box. Also, it permits the manufacturer to use one set of screws for many different luminaire models, thereby reducing their inventory. The clause in UL 1598 that addresses the length of luminaire mounting screws is 10.2.1. It specifies that the length of the screw has to be at least 1/2 in. longer than the distances between the mounting surface and the luminaire surface with the screw hole.

You have elected to replace those screws with shorter screws of the same diameter and thread pitch. The use of those shorter screws that protrude past the other side of the threaded hole by at least 1/4 inch are sufficient to secure the luminaire. This does not void the UL Listing.

Very best regards,"

<end>

[This message has been edited by shockmaster21 (edited 10-31-2005).]

Me too:


[This message has been edited by hurk27 (edited 11-02-2005).]

Shockmaster, I agree with your point but it is a sad comentary on our society that before we do anything there has to be any thought as to lawsuits etc. I refuse to live that way.

Secondly at what point did UL become the king and queen of our world? The fact that they approve the garbage screws that come with fixtures makes me wonder a little bit about their credibility. What is getting by them on real issues?

I like to think that I am smart enough to figure out if a screw is safe to use or not. I don't need or want my hand held by some lab coat wearing geeks who don't have to deal with real world situations. If a person can't figure out what screw to use that person has no business hanging a fixture.

This takes us back to our sad society. Used to be a thing called "personal responsibility". That is a only a memory now as people are always looking for someone to blame. Thanks liberals.

shockmaster21

What do you do when they send extra parts?

Is it a violation to throw them out?

I thought 110.3(B) made it clear that we only have to follow the instructions with listed equipment?

$70M a day seems a bit high... that number would require in the neighborhood of a million visitors each day, which doesn't seem plausible.

$70 a day?

You haven't been to Orlando recently.
I bet $250-300 a day is a better number.
It is hard to spend a day at Disney for <$100 a head.
That $70m is the total tourist related income, not just park admission.
Add rental cars, hotels, resturants and other tourist traps to the list and you are talking serious bucks.

They have a UL exhibit in Epcot where they show how they test TV screens. Using a ball bearing attached to a rope, they swing it into the CRT, if it breaks it doesn't pass(I assume anyway). What I find interesting is, they show lab techs in their nice white coats and safety shields over their faces. But what happens when a CRT explodes,Isn't mercury released into the room?? Why are CRTs considered Universal waste now and not allowed in regular trash if its ok to just smash them?

As far as the 70 million a day is concerned, I ate at Rainforest cafe(at Animal Kindom) for lunch, 3 of us, couple of beers, 132 bucks before tip BTW the place was packed. I also ate at Emerils, Citywalk. 129 bucks for 3 of us but that was worth every penney .(anyone ever have a beer from Belgium called S(C)himmy??? Awesome) There are 100,000 hotel rooms in Orlando area, second only to Las Vegas. 70 million is a figure I either read in Orlando Sentinel or heard on local news. They opened the parks at 2pm the day Wilma went thru and Sea World was open while Wilma was in area and Tornados were developing all over the place.

The tube can break, it just can't IMPLODE. As long as glass doesn't go flying out at the viewer, it passes the test.


There is no mercury in a CRT...


The faceplate glass contains a lot of lead, for protection against X-ray emission. If crushed in a landfill, some portion of that lead leaches out into the groundwater.

[This message has been edited by NJwirenut (edited 11-02-2005).]

I thought the phosphor was toxic, some heavy metals or .....

I stand corrected on mercury

... Do regular fluorescent tubes(lamps) contain mercury and phosphorous?? I'd heard that the gas was argon(an inert gas)??? If this is so,should fluorescent lamps be specially discarded?? ie; reclamation sites,etc??
Russ

Flourescent lamps contain mercury.Raise your hand if you've smashed'em by the hundreds in dumpsters. In Maine, we have to be certified, carry a clean up kit and store all used bulbs in a locked room and then pack up for recycling. Costs me 11 cents a foot to dispose of tubes, 2.00 bucks for Metal halide, sodium etc.

If TV CRTs are anything like computer monitor CRTs they can't be broken, at least not in any Im/Ex-plosive way. We used to throw them in the dumpster all the time and we couldn't get more than a "whoomp/crunch/hiss" sort of thing. They have a plastic membrane in the glass like a windshield. The thing just becomes a bag of broken safety glass ... after lots of abuse.

CRTs have a frame work inside of them to prevent emplosion. It's been required since the "60s" They don't explode because there under a vacume. Most garbage companys in my area will pick them up if the little glass tube that sticks out on the back of the neck is broken (it's in the middle of the socket). This is the tube that is used to evacate and charge the CRT with argon when manufactured.