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Posted By: SimonUK Pentagon - 10/02/05 08:37 AM
just watched a programme on the Discovery cannel about the Pentagon. One guy describing the state of the electrical services stated that its been in violation of the NEC since 1952.

Just thought I'd share this bit of trivia with you.

Having spent nearly 20 years with our own defence services and seen the state of some of their wiring it just makes you wonder how the lawmakers can force you to comply but totally ignore the issues themselves.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Pentagon - 10/02/05 10:47 AM
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it just makes you wonder how the lawmakers can force you to comply but totally ignore the issues themselves.

Typical government hypocrisy.

"Do as we say, not as we do." [Linked Image]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Pentagon - 10/02/05 10:57 AM
The UK government recently appointed some junior MP as the minister in charge of the 'National Insurance Fund', which is fed by taxes, can amount to 9% of income, and is supposed to fund the 'Health' Service. Pressed by an opposition MP as to where this 'fund' was that he was in charge of, and how much was it it, the Government had to eventually admit, after a lot of bluff and baloney, that the 'fund' had never existed, and all monies collected just went into the government's coffers as tax. If we tried a swindle like that, we would be in jail.

Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 10-02-2005).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Pentagon - 10/02/05 11:42 AM
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One guy describing the state of the electrical services stated that its been in violation of the NEC since 1952.

Thinking about this some more, I wonder exactly what was meant. Any wiring installed prior to 1952 would be "grandfathered," and not required to be brought up to current code.

I wonder if the Pentagon has any sort of exemption or whether technically it should comply with whatever local codes are in force in that part of Virginia. Not that I'd relish the thought of being the inspector who tries to take on the Pentagon...... [Linked Image]


Simon/Alan,

A little closer to home, did you know that buildings owned by the Metropolitan Police are exempt from complying with the Building Regulations?
Posted By: iwire Re: Pentagon - 10/02/05 11:51 AM
Projects funded by the US Govt for the Govt are often not inspected by the local inspectors.

The GSA (Govt Services Administration) watches over the jobs. The contracts will tell us to wire to local codes and the GSA is supposed to enforce that. Of course the GSA guy will not have a clue as to what the NEC is or what a construction project looks like.

At least that has been my experience after doing some buildings for the IRS.
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Pentagon - 10/02/05 02:08 PM
I can already see where this thread is possibly going. Everything iwire just said does not suprise me one bit. What the heck, why inspect anything if the taxpayer can just always pay more if need be? (shakes head in disguist)
Posted By: iwire Re: Pentagon - 10/02/05 03:10 PM
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(shakes head in disguist)

Then you probably would have shot yourself in the head if you actually worked with us there. [Linked Image]

They paid more for less than any other customer. [Linked Image]

The specifications are a pain and result in a wiring system that is sub par to any other office space we do.

In 2001 we took an office space that looked like the 1940s and brought it up to an office building of at least the late 70s.

Some of this work was remodeling an operational IRS service center. Primarily people that answer phone calls from the Taxpayers.

Lets just say no one there has any concept of production. [Linked Image]

Oh, there was a voltage drop specification and the GSA guy checked for it with a brand new digital meter. I passed no problem, he did not load the circuit. [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: pauluk Re: Pentagon - 10/02/05 03:46 PM
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Oh, there was a voltage drop specification and the GSA guy checked for it with a brand new digital meter. I passed no problem, he did not load the circuit. <https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/biggrin.gif> <https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/frown.gif>

120V / 10 meg = 12 microamps.

That's a load, ain't it? [Linked Image]
Posted By: iwire Re: Pentagon - 10/02/05 03:55 PM
Yes it is a load. [Linked Image]

Our specification said something like 'no more than 5% drop at the end of the circuit.'

I do not recall them saying where the initial reading would be taken or the amount of load that they would apply.

We ran mostly 10 AWG for the 20 amp circuits to prevent to much drop.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Pentagon - 10/02/05 06:21 PM
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Lets just say no one there has any concept of production.

Ding!! Bob, that's true wherever 2 or more bureaucrats gather! Denise and I went to our small local Tresor Publique (tax office) with a query. The office was brand spanking new and with no expense spared, remodelled into a fine old building and must have cost more than a few hundred grand. The officer said she'd get our dossier. She came back with a blinking microfiche machine! ( this is 2004, not 1982!). Expertly sliding the glass fiche into the machine, she looked for a receptacle to plug it in. There weren't any receptacles in the office, and she wound up looking at our file on the floor in a corridor using the cleaners' recept.! We contained ourselves till the gold-plated, double-glazed automatic doors swished closed behind us on our way out, then exploded in laughter!

Alan
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Pentagon - 10/03/05 02:11 AM
I had a project at US HEW department of Rad Health. (the folks who tested microwave ovens and such). It was a privately owned building, leased by the government. The DP manager had a new computer and he had IBM spec out the power. GSA said they had to do the work. About 3 weeks into the project they still hadn't done much more than mount the 200a panelboard and rough in the feeder from the main panel.

"we have to go to Gathersburg and check out the truck, pick up our tools, check out materials and get down here. Then we have to set up the job. By then it's lunch. After lunch we work as much as we can but we have to clean up and get back to Gaithersburg in time to check in our stuff and return the truck before quitting time"

(the actual excuse)

The DP manager finally just called the building management who pulled a permit, hired a local EC and was done in ONE DAY.

GSA's people seemed happy they didn't have to come back.
Posted By: Clydesdale Re: Pentagon - 10/03/05 02:26 AM
unbelievable!...........................................................................but totally believable.

[This message has been edited by Clydesdale (edited 10-02-2005).]
Posted By: George Corron Re: Pentagon - 10/03/05 11:53 AM
Guess I'd better defend myself here.

2/5 of the building is brand new, and all wiring is up to code and in most cases well beyond.

1/5 is currently gutted and under remodel.

That leaves 2/5 that is classified as "Legacy" space. True, much of that is REALLY ugly. It was installed in the 40's LONG before there was anything to plug in:

remember - there were NO electric typewriters, NO copiers, NO fax, NO shredders, NO computers. Wiring looked a LOT different back then.

That it has not been updated at all is utter nonsense, I was in here just out of my apprenticeship in the 70's doing upgrades on the switchgear. I have not seen the show, nor do I have a clue who made the statement, but I can say that is not an accurate statement. You can, in fact, find spots that are a nightmare, but they are few and far between as we have remodeled much of the legacy space to accomodate the people displaced from the remodel, while the entire space is not all brand new, it is all safe and pretty much up to code, and the electrical part is fairly easy.

We adhere to State of Virginia rules, but there is no county inspection. The inspections are taken care of by the Construction Management team (dat be me, and another for electrical, but I also do design and review, plus sustainable review)and we have some oversight by Dept. of Defense, not GSA.

BTW, our voltage drop issue is as per Ashrae, and yes, WE load test, AFTER I review the drawings as submitted and check the designers calcs. I'm even the jerk who knows where the farthest outlet is already, and guess where I head first? [Linked Image]

IOW iwire, yup, it's a gummint project, but it AIN'T being overseen by da gummint.
Posted By: electricbill Re: Pentagon - 10/03/05 02:26 PM
goverment...and until the last code change...utility's are exempt from the NEC.
although some agengies are more stringent,i.e the FAA.
bill
Posted By: CTwireman Re: Pentagon - 10/03/05 08:23 PM
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In 2001 we took an office space that looked like the 1940s and brought it up to an office building of at least the late 70s.

So maybe by 2030 they'll be caught up to the 2005 standard? [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Pentagon - 10/04/05 11:04 AM
The last few weeks I've had to take a friend over to hospital a few times, and naturally I've been scrutinizing every part of the electrical system I can see (yeah, I know..... [Linked Image] )

This is a new hospital, only been open a couple of years. You can get an idea of the scale involved from the map at the back of this booklet:
http://www.nnuh.nhs.uk/Leaflet.asp?ID=2


While built by outside contractors, with it being a British National Health Service hospital, it's effectively government work.

There seem to be a lot of cracked outlets which have not been replaced, switch and outlet plates sitting skewed because one of the fixing screws is missing, and things like that.
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