Can I get some help? - ECN Electrical Forums

So what do I have to do to get people to respond to me? Its very disheartening to not get a single response after a week. Is it cause Im new? I was really looking for some input on article 409 of the 2005 NEC. Still could use some help, since this report is due in a few days. Thanks for anyone who actually responds.

Edit; Please see the 409 thread at the following link
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000073.html

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 09-21-2005).]

1) Please remember that this is a free site, where people voluntarily give answers if they happen to know something on the topic in question, if they have time, if they happen to be at the computer, etc. If you want a _guarantee_ of an answer, then you have to pay a research service.

2) That said, the members of this site are here to share knowledge, to learn and to teach, and are generally more than willing to answer questions!

3) I don't see your question anywhere; perhaps it didn't actually get posted, or perhaps it was posted when no one with useful input was available, and the question then 'rolled to the bottom of the stack'. When you are 'bumping' a question up to the top, the best way is to reply to the original post, or to provide a link back to the original post. Asking people to hunt around to find your question is a great way to get it ignored!

4) The more specific your question, the more likely that someone will have an answer for it. If you ask a question that requires a long essay to answer, the response will usually be something like 'gosh, I'd love to write that book....later....when I have the time' [Linked Image]

5) Finally, this is me speaking for myself, based upon my own experiences with this site. The moderators can provide you with the official word. [Linked Image]

Good luck!

-Jon

[This message has been edited by winnie (edited 09-21-2005).]

Bless your heart my child, I did a search on your user name and you seem to have ask the same question twice in two different threads.

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Im doing a report on article 409 of the new 2005 NEC. I was wondering if anyone had any insight into how businesses have reacted to the new article, and what they have done to comply with the new regulation. And comments would be appreciated.

I have not done any installations that would fall under ARTICLE 409 Industrial Control Panels of the 2005 NEC and I have not done any research into this article as yet.

As to how a business would react would be simple, they would comply. What other choice is there?

I am sorry that no one has responded to your post as of yet. I have now responded but unfortunately I am of no help. It would be my guess that this is why no one else has responded.

May the wind always be at you back my friend.

edited to add:
See sometimes two people will respond at the same time just as Winnie and myself has done. We were both typing at the same time.
[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by jw electric (edited 09-21-2005).]

There are many niches in electrical contracting, and Art. 409 isn't in mine.

Dave

GMIntern, welcome to the forum. I agree with the others, and would add that in reality, this section doesn't change much of the way this type of installation would have been done even if article 409 wasn't in the NEC.

Winnie's post was on the money, the members here are willing, able, and happy to help others, but as JW and Dave said, many have not and possibly never will do an installation that would come under 409, and I will say once again, I don't think it changes much in the way the installation would have done anyways.

I really don't think this new article will be affecting businesses in a big way, it wouldn't be retroactive, and as far as new installations are concerned, it would be as JW said, they would simply comply.

With that said, stick around and ask more questions, you may ask one that will hit the multi-hundred post mark. [Linked Image]

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 09-21-2005).]

409 - you say ?? Let me see........

yeah my wife has some under the kitchen sink. She uses it to remove stuff I leave on the counter.

"This article details requirements for the installation and inspection of "industrial control panels intended for general use and operating from a voltage of 600 volts or less."
____________________________________________

There may be some business operations that you might want to question, for your report, the small control panel manufactures, the industrial plants, that design build their own equipment, this article will have more of an impact on them, then the electrical contractor.

Hmmm lets see... 2005 not used in California, (about to adopt 2002 as state code, and may skip 2005 on next cycle) but one of our members has provided a link to free access to it.
http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_agreement.asp?id=7005SB

Now is there some particular part that you are worried about complying with? Most of that code, (new only to 2005) seems like common sense. Over-current protection, fill, bending radius of wiring, listas "suitable for use as service equipment", if applicable. I really don't see anything that out of the ordinary. It will meent PLC enclosures may need some extra space, motors maint. disco's will still be required, but they were anyway. The only thing that stuck out in my cursory glance is that it seems to making a defined effort to make applicable codes that may have been over-looked that were required before anyway.

Hello & welcome.......
Time is a very valuable commodity to a lot of us.....we "give" what we can....some 'give' a lot as moderators and the webmaster.

Here in NJ the 2005 NEC will not be adopted until May 2006 at the earliest, so I have no personal (AHJ & EC) knowledge of it's existance.

Please don't take not getting a reply as a personal thing.....I've been here for a while, and the 'guys' ignore me sometimes.

Stay safe, and may the Gulf Coast be as safe as possible.

John

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=article+409+ul+508&btnG=Google+Search

GM Intern,

You will soon learn that the NEC requirements do not apply to automotive plants. I know everyone will say I am wrong, but you just wait and see.

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You will soon learn that the NEC requirements do not apply to automotive plants. I know everyone will say I am wrong, but you just wait and see.

You may be correct for auto plants in your area. [Linked Image]

You can not say that is true all over the county. That type of issue would be up to the local area.

Here where I am the NEC would apply to autoplants,..... if we still had any.

Well I certainly got a reply that time. Sorry for the complaining, but the report was indeed due. I thank all of you for your advice on this network, I am new to electrical stuff and this project was sort of to get me initiated. I might just be back to see what I can learn. Thanks again.

See IWIRE, I knew someone would have to disagree with me.

Zog

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See IWIRE, I knew someone would have to disagree with me.

Well of course, if I say the earth is flat someone will (or should) [Linked Image]

disaagree with me.

The only way that the NEC would not apply to an auto plant in an area that adopted the NEC would be by way of local amendment.

Check it out for yourself.

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90.2 Scope.
(A) Covered. This Code covers the installation of electric conductors, electric equipment, signaling and communications conductors and equipment, and fiber optic cables and raceways for the following:
(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating buildings
(2) Yards, lots, parking lots, carnivals, and industrial substations

(3) Installations of conductors and equipment that connect to the supply of electricity

(4) Installations used by the electric utility, such as office buildings, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and recreational buildings, that are not an integral part of a generating plant, substation, or control center

(B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following:
(1) Installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings, railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles

(2) Installations under ground in mines and self-propelled mobile surface mining machinery and its attendant electrical trailing cable
(3) Installations of railways for generation, transformation, transmission, or distribution of power used exclusively for operation of rolling stock or installations used exclusively for signaling and communications purposes
(4) Installations of communications equipment under the exclusive control of communications utilities located outdoors or in building spaces used exclusively for such installations
(5) Installations under the exclusive control of an electric utility where such installations
a. Consist of service drops or service laterals, and associated metering, or
b. Are located in legally established easements, rights-of-way, or by other agreements either designated by or recognized by public service commissions, utility commissions, or other regulatory agencies having jurisdiction for such installations, or

c. Are on property owned or leased by the electric utility for the purpose of communications, metering, generation, control, transformation, transmission, or distribution of electric energy.

(C) Special Permission. The authority having jurisdiction for enforcing this Code may grant exception for the installation of conductors and equipment that are not under the exclusive control of the electric utilities and are used to connect the electric utility supply system to the service-entrance conductors of the premises served, provided such installations are outside a building or terminate immediately inside a building wall.

Now if you see a part of that excluding auto plants you could share it with us. [Linked Image]

iwire,
Don't feel alone.
I was once told by a plant engineer that local codes requiring permits & inspections only applied to single phase installations in the facility and not 3 phase installations.

Talk about LOL... HA HA HA

Redsy, when he said that to you did you keep a straight face or did you burst out laughing? [Linked Image]

Did they really believe it to be true or did they think you would fall for it?

Bob

quote:
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You will soon learn that the NEC requirements do not apply to automotive plants. I know everyone will say I am wrong, but you just wait and see.

If you truly believe that, maybe you should have your AHJ check with your State Electrical Board. MI State law requires it.

iwire,

That was one of several last straws, which finally caused me to leave. And it was probably the first time in 20 years of working under the same guy (who happened to be an honest hard working engineer) that I acted somewhat disrespectfully.
BTW,
He was only relaying to me what "Corporate Engineering" told him when he posed my 2nd inquiry regarding permits & inspections.
My 1st inquiry got the response that we can do whatever we want within the "battery limits" of our property.

Battery limits???!!!

We had an incident where the plant management, was sure they did not need permits, they insisted they were exempt, I was told i din't know what i was talking about,
They got another EC that agreed with them, and said we never need prermits for working in plant, as it turns out, plant was closed until they complied, and i belive they were also fined, contractor was in deep do do.

When I was in the computer biz I saw lots of "inside" work done over the years and I never saw a permit until it was IBM doing the work as a 3d party. When the building management did it, the work was always just "done".

US government offices never got permits, even if they leased the building.
I have some interesting "GSA" stories.

After 1995 <new laws> the State of florida got permits but they wrote their own and contracted the inspections (my job).
The law allows ANY state employee to do the work. When it is a big operation with a competent maintanence staff the people were usually good. Ken Collingsworth at Desoto Correctional ran the most professional jobs I ever saw, including those done by very good contractors. I think he "traded" around the system to get the best "locked up" electricians. Their EMT was a thing of beauty.
On the other hand we had park rangers who had a time life book and watched This Old House a lot. [Linked Image]

At that point I did become an instructor more than an inspector, (in spite of what they tell you). I didn't care. It paid the same and I wasn't that busy. My boss (the AHJ) told me to just make it safe. He didn't care how it happened.

As of August 12th, the following states have adopted the 2005 NEC, which includes the new aforementioned Article 409 for the first time.

North Dakota, Massachusetts, Colorado, Idaho, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas, Washington and Wyoming.

With the exception of Mass. and Ohio, hardly the largest population hubs nor the epicenter of the industrial world (appologies to Texas, but let's be realistic here). Most likely the reason you didn't get a lot of response was that it is not yet an issue that many people in the trade need to deal with yet. So in effect, that IS your response.

John,

Do you find that your own town is sometimes the worst to try and get inspections for? I know that we are not allowed to inspect the Feds' things, and the state has the DCA, but sometimes the municipal things get overlooked too. I also find that many industrial sites never get inspections either. I guess they feel that they are above the NEC.

Harold