[This message has been edited by distributor x (edited 05-03-2006).]

Glad you posted your question at ECN, where we are all mature adults, not given to name calling and crass comments :-)

There is a LOT more to the trade that either the code, or knowing what the parts are.

You need to get a "feel" for wire pulls, so you will lay them out better the next time.
Bending pipe is an art, and not something you learn by reading a book.
Only time with a shovel will teach you a 24" ditch is twice as hard to dig as an 18" ditch.
You need to see how things were done, during different periods, so you can learn how to work with them.
You need to learn how to "think," so the next guy won't have to spend all day trying to figure out what you were doing.
Finally, you need to see how a job site operates....how the trades interact with each other...and why "customer" begins with "cuss."

After the second year, many apprentices figure they've learned all they need to know....now they just need to put in their time. At the end of the program, these same guys are amazed at how much more there is to learn.
In a sense, a "journeyman" card means you're ready to really start learning.


There are a lot of related trades....some even call themselves 'electricians.' Only in an apprenticeship program, with a rotation among different employers, are you systematically exposed to all the parts of the trade.

Well said Reno, all I was going to say was I am glad that is not the rule in my state.

After putting my time working in the field to get the opportunity to take the test to get my license I am sure I would not want someone doing a 'walk in'.

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 09-15-2005).]

Reno:
Very eloquent. I would like to hand it out to my class next week.....IF it's OK with you.

Bob:
Yes, I have to second your motion.....been there, done that, paid my dues...

"My focus has always been sales, I have never given putting the tools on much thought before... what exactly is the difference between an apprentice, journeyman and an electrician??"

Not to indicate any sarcasim, or nastiness on my part....but????? you really want to take the test, and think you can pass....BUT you have no clue what the test title signifies??? Give me a break.

John

[This message has been edited by HotLine1 (edited 09-15-2005).]

Give it a try.

[This message has been edited by distributor x (edited 05-03-2006).]

Distributor X,
... I am NOT one to preach,but I will give you my advise which comes from YEARS in the field,as an apprentice,a journeyman,and finally a Master..Don't jump the gun,..put in your time,serve and learn under an experienced Master first,get a "feel" for the jobs at hand,and soak up knowledge like a sponge.You most likely have the advantage over most apprentices starting out because you know product..but thats not everything.
..As I learned a long time ago,..to become a good electrician is to be a good apprentice..If you still feel like you need to take the exam,..go for it,..then you'll find out(the hard way)it's not as easy as it seems... Good Luck,...
Russ

X You did not really think a bunch of guys in the trade would think your ready to get your license?


If I was a business owner I would snap you right up, another license in the company is always a good thing, especially as you would be getting paid about what a 6 month apprentice would get, that is if you are able to physically keep up with the others.

Reno, after seeing John's comment about your post I re-read it.

John is right, you really hit the nail on the head, great post.

Bob

I had background in machine and control panel wiring with completion of electronics classes when I decided to study for the exam. I studied approx. 200 hours with a few long phone calls to a friendly electrical engineer/inspector.

I was already in my own repair/remodeling business with three children. I couldn't consider the pay cut for apprenticeship. Anyway, I got a 93 on the test and got a line of credit at the local supplier. I asked to walk through the stock to see what was available. This was before the big hardware warehouses.

I was probably a couple years into the new business before I contracted an addition with conduit through wood frame. This is something an apprentice would learn in the first year. An apprentice taught me about the multipliers for bending offsets. I learned a lot from this forum and continue learning every day.

If you need some help, e-mail me anytime.

Dave

One of our local EC's hired a gent that worked in a supply house and had his lic., thought he would give him a chance, the first job he sent him on was rigid pipe installation, he spent 6 days trying to install the job, they had to send another crew to do the job over, then he sent him to trouble shoot at a packing plant, they sent him back and asked for him not to return, then finally they had him work with a helper, and the helper said he needed a lot of practice before he would work with him, finally the guy realized he had a lot to learn, but din't want to put in the time to do it,

I have seen many, with families start at the bottom and do very well, no excuse if you really want to have a good foundation, to build on.

Dave I would have to say yours is an unusual circumstance, more power to you for making it work for you.

Working for yourself is the only way I can see it working if you can not deal with the low pay to start out in the trade.

I guess a lot depends on what you want to be doing in this trade.

You generally do not get to play with the big toys or the coolest tools without some sort of in the field experience.

I've been electrician for 15 years, and I feel like I hardly know **** after I read some of the info on here. The only formal school training I ever got was a 12 week course in Navy 'A' school. Now that I'm getting serious about my trade, I'm going back to school, and I am excited about doing it.

I once worked for a licensed electrician who was clueless about wiring an add-a-level/ addition, yet he had the license. The point of my post was to point out that just because you're smart enough to pass the test, doesn't necessarily automatically make you the better electrician.

Carry on...

[This message has been edited by ShockMe77 (edited 09-16-2005).]

You have a point Shock. I can nail a test, even if I am barely familiar with the material, if I have the book.

I made a conscious decision not to take the EC test when I was burning through the inspector tests because I knew I wasn't qualified.
There is a big difference between knowing what a system should look like and actually installing it.

A Paper on the wall or a card in your wallet doesn't mean everything. I've met Journeymen that passed the test who couldn't wire, or troubleshoot a keyless fixture. Then there are the guys who couldn't pass a test to save their life and they are the same guys who get the job done correctly and quickly. But For the most part Passing the test means you are on your way up. Don't get complacent once you get your licence.

Justin

IMO, anyone can pass a test.
Those that have the practical knowledge to be able to do the job, pass my test.

DistributorX, go for it.......

Don't let the the negative replies, you read here change your mind. Not everyone has to "start at the bottom", just because so-and-so did, and he thinks it is the only way to do it. That's rediculous.

If you think you can pass it, take it. If you think you can make a go at it, go for it.

Just don't pass the test and think you know everything, as learning never ends unless you die.


Dnk.....

Distributor x,

I understand where you're coming from. As an apprentice, I've definitely considered loopholes to try and get my card as fast as possible. The conclusion I've come to though, is that to deprive myself of this valuable learning experience would be to cut my legs out from under me.

Everyone is allowed to make mistakes, but as an apprentice, it is undestoood that you are still learning. However, there are certain expectactions placed on licensed electricians. It is assumed they have gone through their apprenticeship and that there are many things they should already know. Certainly many of these things are skills and knowledge you won't pick up from passing the EC test.

I caution you that if you do decide to skip the apprenticeship, be prepared to have your first few months or even years as an EC, be very much a trial-by-fire. You will have to learn and adapt extremely quickly just to keep pace with folks who already have a minimum of four years experience under their belt. If you can do it, more power to you, but I would be very careful about under-estimating the ease of any trade, this one included.

Good luck to you either way.

-John

[This message has been edited by BigJohn (edited 09-25-2005).]

I think some of the resistance we meet has come from a serious mis-understanding of some terms- and usually with "additions" made to the proper definitions!

"Trade school" is NOT a place for the inept, undiciplined, or those "not good enough" for college. Almost any tradesman worth his salt has put as much time, effort, money, and brainpower into his trade as anyone else- and, yes, I'm including doctors, lawyers, and engineers in this!

"Apprentice" is NOT a term used to describe children, serfs, or inferiors. It is a term describing the special relationship between someone who wants to learn, and someone who wishes to teach him, and the bureaucracy involved in documenting this training- so the guy finishes the course with more than just his hat in his hand.

"Journeyman" is someone who has had the training, the experience, and the documentation to show that they have attained a MINIMUM competence in the trade- and have at least had classroom exposure to all facets of it.

One can easily say that, once you've attained "journeyman" ststus.....then you're ready to begin really learning!

Now, taking the test is something everyone should be able to do. Pass or fail, you can't help but gain a appreciation of the training a journeyman has. Pass it, and that piece of paper is some kind of yardstick as to what you've learned.

But I advise against taking the test by those who feel they are somehow "better" than someone who is "only" an apprentice. Nor should the posession of a college degree be a reason to avoid the program.

Simply put, there are no short-cuts.

Renosteinke, makes a really good point. It was'nt until I bacame journyman that I really started to understand all the things I was taught in my four year apprentice class.

I now teach the first and second year apprentice program at a local trade college. I try to teach the apprentices not to feel overwhelmed by the material that I am exposing them to, but that with time in the trade it will start to make more sense to them.

Chris

Duh. Help me unerstand. I began as an apprentice in July of 1960. I still haven't been exposed to all aspects of the trade, but continue to learn.

Distributor x: If you get your journeyman's card and work for a customer or anyone else, please follow some of the advice here and make sure you do things properly. I would hate to hear of you or anybody getting injured or killed because of inexperience on the part of person doing the work.

"If I was a business owner I would snap you right up, another license in the company is always a good thing"

I had a whole three months in the trade when I passed my journeymans exam. The state let me test because I have a BS in electronics.

I took the test because my boss wanted me to and he offered a raise. I would do it again in a second. Having a journeymans card doesn't mean you know everything. You just have to know your own limitations.

When the options are having a card or not, I'd take having the card everytime.

John, (Reno)
I can't help but agree with you.
Quite true,
It annoys me when I hear customers talking to our Apprentices like they just came down in the last shower.
We wouldn't hire them if they didn't have a clue.
Often times the Apprentices have more of an idea of life than the customer, no matter how new they are.
It's just not on.

Chris, I'm going through school now and experiencing the exact opposite of what you said. I have the years in the trade, but lack the technical knowledge. So most of the material we're going over makes sense to me because of my experience.

[This message has been edited by ShockMe77 (edited 10-01-2005).]

I'm taking a 9 month, full (academic) day course at the local county vo-tech. At the end I intend to take and pass the Journeyman's test. The theory, practical book work ... is frankly a snap for me.

I had a father who was an EE at a power company for his entire life and he taught me a lot of the theory and practical knowledge of electricity. I also have a degree in computer science, 36 years in software engineering, and have spent years interpreting MA building code for handicapped accessibility which partly prepared me for the legalistic NEC speak.

I'm mostly looking for apprentice practical training in the courses and the instructor is very good about having high standards and enforcing them.

This is a second career for me and a way to stay active.

So let loose with the comments

From my point of view, you'll have a sheet of paper saying you know that a disconnect is needed for any type of motor. That's all good that you know that, but have you ever been up in an attic to wire an attic fan? That's all I'm saying. But its nobody's fault but their own if the electrician has "done his time" but hasn't gotten a certificate to back it up.

Good luck to you.

[This message has been edited by ShockMe77 (edited 10-01-2005).]

This is a Shortcut.
We've all worked at a job where the Lead Guy did not know jack. The Apprentice's were pushing the job and getting pissed because journeyman didn't know what to do was getting higher pay than them. You'll always be relying on the Apprentice's for the knowlege and trying not to let them catch on to your ignorance of it.
Your only shortcutting yourself in the long run. That J card means you know somthing more than the average electrician, not just parts. This is a good trade to get into and will take far, if you do it right.

JMHO
Rob

Take the test.

Tell no one.

When you feel comfortable, step forward.

Until then, play apprentice.

if you take your work seriously, do not bypass apprenticeship. if you only care about taking shortcuts and making more money, then skip it. But you will always have the cloud of a shortcut hanging over your career.

Shockme77, I have one current student that has been an electrician for a few years and is just now taking the apprenticeship course.

He seems to be like you, in the fact that he really grasps the concepts better than alot of the new students with no experience.

For the most part, a large majority of the students in my class are new to the trade, and the concepts that I am teaching.

Good luck with your classes.

Chris