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Posted By: e57 Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/11/05 10:43 PM
I recently had a conversation with a PM from another company.... Topic of troubleshooting came up, and mentioned that it was a skill I was "taught". (Along with schematic reading and general operation of 3 phase motor controls. Not only was I taught this skill, I was tested extensively on it, with lots of pratical application.)

Anyway, the reply from this PM was "troubleshooting can NOT be taught, you either have or you don't."

What do all of you think, and anyone have any decent methods of teaching it?
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/11/05 11:14 PM
Quote
Anyway, the reply from this PM was "troubleshooting can NOT be taught, you either have or you don't."
You can teach the theory and techniques, but being able to do it effectively cannot be taught.
Don
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/11/05 11:20 PM
Yes, anything can be 'taught' if the person has an interest. IMHO, the best method is "hands-on" along with class time.

I had a few "youngsters" over the years that worked with/for me, and those that had an interest to learn, did well. Back then we worked at a printing plant, and there was a varied amount of TS from VFD's to old DC equipment. Experience is a great instructor.

Reading from books, and doing class work is a valuable instructional tool, but having actual 'hands-on' makes it even better. Actually 'seeing' a piece of equipment, after looking at the schematic, presents a "real life" experience.

John
Posted By: hbiss Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/11/05 11:57 PM
Of course it can be taught and always has been. The person needs to have a thorough understanding of what they are working with as well as develop a logical procedure to isolate a problem. A person doesn't necessarily have to have a formal education in these skills, they can be gained through experience and intelligence.

I think anybody who says "troubleshooting cannot be taught, you either have it or you don't" probably has been working with the brain dead. There are those that, no matter how hard you try to get them to understand, just don't have the intelligence to go beyond the grunt work.

-Hal
Posted By: Electric Eagle Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 01:58 AM
I'm beginning to also think that troubleshooting can't be taught. At least not to everyone. There is an instinctive property to troubleshooting that one either has or they don't. I'm not talking about using a repair manual and performing tests based on a flow chart, I'm talking about troubleshooting a circuit or building where no manual exists. It's usually something simple, but I've seen guys spend 4 hours and tear up half the building only for me to walk in an solve the problem in 5 minutes. And some of these guys are excellent electricians, they just can't solve problems, they look "too hard".
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 02:16 AM
I was in the computer fixin' end of the business (back when they broke) I think you can teach trouble shooting tricks and procedures. You can even come up with an engineered "MAP".
What you can't teach is that gut feel that "this ain't the problem, we gotta go another way".
Some folks just have a second sense about what kind of problem they are working on and which way to start based on what works and what doesn't work.
Posted By: JCooper Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 03:03 AM
In the company I work for we have three service techs, one who has been doing service for over 20 years, one who was an installer for a few years and one who was an installer, not a very good one, and due to injury was placed in service. The first two guys are great at their job and I think a lot of their skills come from years in the field but mostly from being able to think logically. The third guy no matter how many time you explain something to him just doesn't seem to sink in. Part of troubleshooting is being able to apply past experience, if applicable, and if it something new being able to take it logically piece by piece to break down the problem into manageable chunks. If you took somebody who is mechanically inclined, who grew up in a shop and is a hands-on kind of person they typically are very logical thinkers, whereas if you took somebody who is interested in the arts they are more creative thinkers who can't follow logic as easily. A good troubleshooter, in my opinion, has a balanced mindset with the logic to break down the problem and the creativity to come up with a solution.
Posted By: e57 Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 03:25 AM
This is interesting.... Mentions of flow-charts or maps.... Exactly how I was taught, but with schematics. I had to either "memorize, or be able to verbalize" from start to load contact, the entire electro-mechanical, and solid-state AC and DC operation on a schematic of a 60kw genorator to pass my class in the military. It was impossible to memorize, and was easier to just know the symbols and what they did. They would also have the class pass a prac-ap by "bugging" a generator. After that, you got handed a random piece of equipment, and you could do the same thing. Even if handed just a piece of equipment, you would just make a schematic of it, if you didn't have one. Personaly, I think being able to visualze the circuit, and the problem is key. And being able to visualize an unknown circuit can be easily done, and easily taught. If the person has at least basic therory, and schematic reading skills, the concept of troubleshooting is not far off for them.

The way I see it, if someone is capable of building a circuit of (X) complexity. They should be able to troubleshoot at (X) complexity. Unless dealing with a whole building system of controls, most power, and lighting circuits are not that complex.

I should now admit I have not taught anyone the skill. Maybe time I should....
Posted By: e57 Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 03:36 AM
One more anology... If you can learn how to play the game of chess, even at basic level, you can learn to troubleshoot.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 03:59 AM
I've found for me, it depends what I'm trouble-shooting. When I go into a system I've never worked in before (and I have the leasure to do this) I like to sit and break it down in my mind until I understand the complete operation; not just the part that is failing that I have to fix. That way when I go back in the future, it takes no time at all to diagnose a problem, because I'm already familiar with it. But this is all electromechanical; even with the schematics, it's pretty linear.

I have tried and tried to learn solid-state trouble-shooting, but I can't visualize the operation of the circuit in even the simplest of applications. And maybe that's a key hangup, what I'm trying to do is see the operation in my mind, in this case, no moving parts I'm actually thinking about current flow.

Maybe I need to find someone experienced who can actually teach it, but I think that some of these skills also depend a lot on the way the learner approaches the problem. Solid-state seems like more of an abstraction, and is accordingly much harder fo rme to grasp (surprise, surprise, I don't intuit algebra, either).

But I definitely think there are definitely different types of trouble-shooting, and depending on the person, some can be more easily taught than others.

My $0.02

-John
Posted By: trollog Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 04:23 AM
It's that 6th-sense gut instinct that separates the sheep from the goats in troubleshooting. Maybe it comes from years of experience, or from a thorough training in seeing the "big picture" when it comes to a problem, but you either got it or you don't. The best guys at it that I have worked with seem to be able to almost see or smell where the trouble spot is and know where to start looking. Any amateur can follow a flow chart and waste 6 man-days locating the source of trouble starting with item A and troubleshooting all the way through to item Z, but the best guys get to the problem much much quicker. That's the part that can't be taught.
Posted By: georgestolz Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 04:39 AM
Then again, sometimes that same instinct backfires, and the simple problem went overlooked while we were following the hunch. [Linked Image]

I am good at troubleshooting, but the funny part is I cannot visualize a mistie once I have discovered how to fix it. Without fail, I will murk along in confusion, then the [Linked Image] goes off, and I fix it. Someone can come along thirty seconds later, and I cannot accurately describe a 'schematic' of the original setup of the problem to save my fanny.

I think standard troubleshooting can be taught, but intuitive troubleshooting is the mark of a true Jedi. [Linked Image]
Posted By: C-H Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 07:26 AM
I think it can be taught. Personally I learn it the way e57 describes:

Quote
The way I see it, if someone is capable of building a circuit of (X) complexity. They should be able to troubleshoot at (X) complexity.

With a complexity of X^2 I'm completely lost. [Linked Image]
Posted By: e57 Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 07:34 AM
Love that Jedi comment [Linked Image]

I think I can put some basic rules of troubleshooting basic lighting and power circuits on to a single sheet of paper. Simple enough for the average 4 year journeyman to understand. Two sheets of paper tops. Its not that hard.

Motor and systems controls, different story.

And, yes, I totally agree, experiance does count for a lot in this area. So does the willingness to learn....
Posted By: iwire Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 09:30 AM
I can not agree more with Don. [Linked Image]

Quote
You can teach the theory and techniques, but being able to do it effectively cannot be taught.
Don

A person can go to school to become an executive and they may retain all that they have learned it still does not mean they will be an effective executive.

Bob
Posted By: jw electric Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 09:45 AM
I have read some pretty interesting comments in this thread. I have been doing electrical work for more years than some in here is old (over 35years) and have been a part-time instructor for over five years. I have worked in every aspect of the electrical field from mobile homes to high rise buildings. From strip malls to chemical plants and a church or two in between. I have installed electrical circuits in furniture stores, plants and showrooms. During my experiences I have dabbled a couple of times in the maintenance fields of furniture, chemical and tried a bakery a time or two.

When it comes to trouble shooting electrical circuits’ weather they are an electronic or a motor control circuit if the person doing the trouble shooting does not understand the circuit they will be lost.

I have a couple of students that came from the back of a rip saw in a furniture plant that in two years time have made it to the top of their maintenance departments. One of these students is the assistant plant electrician in his plant.

Trouble shooting is a matter of understanding what you are working on and the ability to reduce the circuit to a simple circuit. The complexity of this computer that I am typing on can be brought down to a simple circuit consisting of a power source, a load, and a path for current to flow. Knowing the amount of current, the size of the load, and the path the current is to take is the hard part of troubleshooting the circuits of this computer. The basic theory of electricity is no different in the circuits in this computer and in the circuits on a house, store or motor control circuit.

The bottom line of troubleshooting comes down to how well I understand the circuits of the piece of equipment I am working on. In a troubleshooting class the first problem one of my students will face is a four gain box with four three way switches and four minutes to make the lights burn. This box is in a finished wall. One switch is fed in this box, one switch is fed from the other end and two switches are fed from the light with one switch being the end of the circuit and the other switch if fed through to the other switch and back to the light. Remember only four minutes, as any good maintenance man knows time is money. Once this is mastered we move on to other things. No troubleshooter in the field today will make it if they can’t solve the four three way switches.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: walrus Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 11:49 AM
Patience is a key, I see alot of "techs" who freak out when things don't go right. They lose it and there goes any chance of figuring out the problem. If someone really understands the theory( and by that I mean as applied in the real world), they should be able to troubleshoot. Whether they are good at it depends on their ability to work under pressure, with people looking over their shoulders and the amount of patience they have.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 02:55 PM
I don't think it'a a matter of patience, as much as a matter of understanding what the machine is supposed to do, as well as being systematic about it.

That manager has an attutude I've often found at poorly-run places, that pay as little as possible, skimp on benifits, have little or nothing in the way of preventive maintenance, want nothing but continuous production 24/7, and sure as heck aren't about to spend either a dime or the time training anyone.

A schematic or ladder diagram is an amazingly helpful thing to have- especially if it has been kept "up to date" and reflects changes. Then "troubleshooting " is pretty much a matter of either starting at one end and working through it, or by 'working by halves.'

"Working by halves" is wher you start in the middle- then you progress to the left or right, depending upon whether everything is OK where you started.

Besides knowing how to read the things- and it amazes me how many maintenance persons have never had someone spend five minutes with them explaining them- one needs to understand how the various sensors can either be fooled, or misbehave.(Ever have a photocell get confused by the light it controls?)

We're all inclined to make quick guesses...and often we're right. My own rule is this: two quick guesses, and then we start over, being systematic, and checking all our assumptions- beginning with "is it pluged in?"

I really feel the attitudes of managers who consider people 'disposable' and try to make the person fit the slot is short-sighted. As I see it, it is part of the manager's job to lead and develop his crew. If your platoon has an excess of riflemen but needs a radio operator, you don't toss a rifleman aside- you train one of them to work the radio! Yet, many firms do exactly that; they fire/ lay-off someone they "don't need," while running an ad for a replacement.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 04:56 PM
"Cutting the problem in half" is an excellent way to get going. The power of 2 allows you to slice something down very fast. The other question I used to ask as soon as I came in on a support call "can you draw a circle around the problem". This might be a huge circle that includes everything in the room but you hope they have at least got it down to one box, interface or process.
Sometime is is good to just figure out what IS working.
Experience is important when you know what hardware usually breaks and what never breaks but you have to understand if this was what "always" happens the other guy would have fixed it. [Linked Image]

On a support call you should ask the other guys what they know about the problem. You may "see" the problem before you see the box. The best situation is when they see it too once they hear it all out loud. I always let the other guy fix something if they figured it out in the coffee chat. Builds confidence.
Posted By: Tesla Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/12/05 11:42 PM
Three factors make a great troubleshooter.

Cool temperment under pressure and frustration.

Raw IQ -- pure intelligence.

An intuitive mental frame of mind.

I take it for granted that any troubleshooter would be schooled in the basics.

A phenomenal troubleshooter would have a wide ranging interest in science and technology and understands the underlying mechanisms.
Posted By: Tesla Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/13/05 12:01 AM
Three factors make a great troubleshooter.

Cool temperment under pressure and frustration.

Raw IQ -- pure intelligence.

An intuitive mental frame of mind.

I take it for granted that any troubleshooter would be schooled in the basics.

A phenomenal troubleshooter would have a wide ranging interest in science and technology and understands the underlying mechanisms.
Posted By: e57 Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/13/05 12:16 AM
Anyone ever here of these two rules: (Two simple rules I have known since I started the trade.)

Follow the short from the source.
In this method you follow a short by measuring its ohm value, and following it though and taps of the circuit until you find it or pass it. If you pass it, take one step back. There it is... In this process you're splitting the circuit down to managable parts, only following the path of the short. Works the same for over-load, or indirect short.

Follow the open to the source.
When following an open, you start from the device without power, (Phase or Neutral) and follow the circuit back through the successive devices and conductors that provide power to it.

Like my chess comment, it's just like knowing which way the pieces move... Niether rule requires any schematic.


I vaguely remember some accronym...

Interview the operator.
Determine the problem.
Expose the circuit
N...(Now learn the circuit operation.)
T... (Test, and take notes.)
Isolate the circuit.
Follow the path to the problem.
Y... (Something like "You're done, now fix it.")


I don't have a lot of time right now, the wife wants to go to dinner, but later I'll post some more.



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-12-2005).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/13/05 12:31 AM
Really all trouble-shooting is, is being able to think logically. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Electric Eagle Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/13/05 01:16 AM
[quote]Cool temperment under pressure and frustration.

Raw IQ -- pure intelligence.

An intuitive mental frame of mind.
[\quote]
I think Telsa hits the nail on the head here. If a guy tends to panic, they'll never be able to logically figure out the problem.
Posted By: Larry Fine Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/13/05 01:44 AM
I'm one of those instinctive troubleshooters. It must be innate, not learned. My guys can look and not see. The main thing they forget is that the (whatever) worked at one time, so it does not need to be rewired.

My favorite no-power T/S tool is my solenoid-type voltage tester and a 3-prong extension cord plugged into a known-good receptacle. You have a reference hot, neutral, and ground, at least one of which is missing.
Posted By: Tiger Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/13/05 02:43 AM
I'm not sure if it can be taught, but IMO it's related to experience. It could be organized into a list of most likely possibilities.

In residential, for instance, I'd consider it very unlikely for a wire to be open (as in blown open, not a bad or loose connection). However, if I found overfusing in the panel, the likelihood would increase substantially.

Dave
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/13/05 06:30 AM
As far as logical thinking goes fellas.
I work on all sorts of Electrical systems.
My first question in my head would be "What would cause this to happen in the first place?".
An over-current or a short-circuit?.
Common sense would tell you to go and have a look at the other end of the run.
Most of the time you won't even need test gear, but if you do, make sure you have it with you.
Posted By: teraohm1 Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/14/05 02:19 AM
yeah i think it can be tought,as long teaching means theory and the practical part.
troubleshooting is sure learning by doing ,but it is nothing if you don't have the basics i think
Posted By: Sixer1 Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/16/05 05:18 AM
Troubleshooting CAN be taught. When we get called out to a problem, I tell the apprentice to watch my technique. Every approach to troubleshooting is the same. Don't panic, ask questions, and start from the basics then work from there. For the most part it's usually something simple and obvious that has caused the problem. Sometimes having blind luck helps too [Linked Image]
Posted By: e57 Re: Can troubleshooting be taught? - 09/16/05 07:07 AM
The reason I might disagree with those who say it can not be taught, is be cause I was taught the skill right after the basics, and right before I knew anything else of electrical construction at all. I entered the trade in the military, and went to school as an Electrical Equipment Repair Specialist. (This is right after I also learned how to hit someone with a bullet from 1000' yards, or over hills with a .50 Cal machine gun. [Linked Image] )

Anyway, after intensive therory, and general circuit operation, learning what it took to make something work for 10 hours a day for 4 months, and no field experiance. Learned how to troubleshoot, in a few short weeks after that. With simple straight forward guidelines. Those guidelines are the basics of the approach to the problem, and what many here refer to as "logical thinking" ect. Like the two rules I put above... Which way to approach and follow a short, and which way to approach and follow an open circuit. Following those two rules, your basic short or open cicuit are childs play IMO. Because they give you something to measure against, and path to follow. A basic over-load situation can be an easy (reverse) load calc' with some basic calculations. Electro-mechanical controls, can be a brain teaser just following them around, but not too difficult.

The only things that become even remotely difficult (or require a crystal ball) are over/undervoltage, and 3 phase motors and transformers, as it does take some interpitation of found readings, that might come through working and not working devices. Solid state, and programming are a different ball game.

I am not saying its easy, it can be very challenging! But I feel half the battle of teaching someone anything, is the student being willing to take the challenge, and being willing to learn, other-wise its a waste of time. The other half, is that you need a teacher to explain it properly, to the point that it can be simple. And for that, I totally agree, a good foundation in the basics are key, and you need those to work effectively in this trade anyway, IMO.
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