Hopes for the best of what is going to be a BAD hurricane in New Orleans. A friend of mine lives down there, and is going to hole up in a hotel that he manages. Figures its his safest bet at the present time. It being on a hill, and a solid new concrete building, with storm shutters and ample food and water stores. I asked... And they even have a life-raft in the emergency kit.

So this being an electrical forum.... So if you know the storm is coming, do you leave the power on? (All non-essential personel have been ordered out.) Or shut if off to stave off further damage from the enevitable short, flooded transformer vault, or downed line? NOLA is a 'bath tub' so to speak, being under sea-level. So flooding is enevitable. Would it not make sense to shut if off for the storm, rather than to present a hazard to Emergency Workers during it?

The reason I say this, when I was younger, I was out during a hurricane, (Gloria) and saw power-lines blown over on to a house. Burned a major portion of it while it took some time to get shut off.

Anyway, it going to be a bad storm for that whole area of the country. (Already has been.) There will be damage, but hope no more lives are lost to this storm.

Our local power co. sometimes does shutdown lines during storms, usually ice here. It seems to me that shutting the lines down would help minimize damage to equipment and electrocution hazards after. We occasionally do some storm recovery in the Carolinas, what a mess! Our thoughts and prayers are with those in the path of this thing.Hang on guys.
KB

It seems NOLA made it out of the storm much better than previously expected. Although the whole area is still due for the hashest storm in some time to hit the area. A whole swath across many states is in the middle of this now.

Haven't spoken to my friend yet, but am reasonabley sure, (Knock on wood) that he'll make it out of this OK.

Still have not heard from my friend... I hope he's OK. Guess I spoke too soon on New Orleans.... Watching the news tonite, and the whole region looks real bad.

I have been watching the hurricanes' progress on FOX news where there has been continuous coverage for the last two days. The other night New Orleans' Frence Quarter was shown as dry & the reporter was glad to say that the city had missed most of it only to have the flooding occur within the last 24 hours. It looks like a mammoth job to rebuild the affected areas in three states as there is just so much to clean up (where does all the rubbish go?) Power won't be on for some months according to a report on ABC(Australia) news due to the widespread damage to a lot of the transmission lines & equipment.
I hope all that everyone know that live in the area are safe & well but with no communications (mobile/cell phones & landlines are mostly useless) its near impossible to find out which would make things a lot worse.

Darn! I hope your friend is able to communicate soon, watch for smoke signals, I'm not sure how else he could. This thing brings out the best and worst in our society. What I would really like to see on the news is an armed citizen dropping a couple looters in their tracks. I don't believe the majority are stealing to survive but simply taking the oppurtunity.
KB

Survival??????

In new tennis shoes and new Tv sets, and Rolex watches?

It is a shame to see this happen, watching the looters, I can't send them any help unfortunatley. So many people need help but I am afraid the money will go to the looters who are crying help rather than the people who really need it.


Dnk....

I can't get my head around why you would want to pinch a TV set when you can't use the thing...greed for greeds sake. A way of dealing with people that had no good reason to be out & about at night was demonstarted by the NT Police during the Katherine flood in Jan 1998, a high powered rifle was used to sink the boats then the occupants had to find their own way around without a boat.

What happened to the old; "looters will be shot on sight?" These idiots are stealing stuff they'll never use becasue there's no place to use a 27" TV!! Also, what part of "evacuate" didn't they understand several days ago? It's no surprise that the people who didn't leave were planning on some good lootin' after everyone left! I agree with KB, I'd like to see a stand-up citizen drop a couple of these morons.

Gentlemen, I think right now we should be more concerned with those in need than our hatred or disdain for the thieves.

Roger

It is a real shame people didn't/couldn't get out when ordered/asked to leave, the TV still shows pictures of people on rooftops awaiting evacuation. I am still trying to fathom the scale of all this destruction & where people are going to go until they can return, where they will go if they don't return to where they were living or for some who juts can't go back. there was also talk on TV regarding another storm building off the West Africa coast, lets all hope that this disappears as this is the last thing the residents need. How much of the 'hurricane season' is left?

You know, 36" of snow every couple years doesn't sound so bad now....

God help the children down there.....

Dnk.......

Most of the NOLA people who didn't leave stayed because they had no way to leave. These are folks who don't have the money to live in a hotel and some didn't even have a car.

There may have been some TV looters but most of the people I saw had things they need to live. The store owners are going to write off all this stuff anyway.
I am not sure we should rebuild these places that don't meet the FEMA elevation code. You can't build anything in Florida that isn't 11' above sea level. That is a federal rule. This NOLA debacle may break the back of the federal flood insurance program.

gfret - I agree with you. Serious consideration should be given to banning the building or re-building in areas that will be devastated/obliterated during hurricanes such as this. As far as the looters, please don't make the excuse that the owners are going to write it off anyway! That's a poor excuse for criminal behavior in times of disaster. I hope the weight of the loot drags them under!

Most of the people bought the food they needed to live with before the storm hit.

Evacuation orders were given to all before hand, and the government provided transportation and shelters for those who had to stay for whatever reason.

Why do they need TV's to live. I need things to live, but I don't loot it. I've been on bad times before. Why did the looter shoot the cop in the head?

Why do people loot after Sports championships, in cities? They need something to live?

Shoot them...end of story.....

Dnk.....

Here in Britain we're noted for complaining about our notoriously fickle and changeable weather, even though extremes are rare and never anywhere near as severe as in America.

Seeing the devastation caused by this hurricane is a sobering reminder that we really have much to be thankful for with respect to our climate.

May God bless and protect all those affected.

I certainly agree those who are taking TVs are simply stealing but it gets a little muddier when they are taking food, water and things they need to live. The guys who own those stores are not going to come in and open them up. To say they stocked up (or should have) is meaningless when their house is under water.
Again, there are not the rich people. They are typically folks who were on the economic edge before the storm.

This problem is not going away any time soopn. We still have thousands of people living in FEMA trailers in Punta Gorda from Charlie over a year ago.

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 08-31-2005).]

I agree with you there.....

And I wish there was a way to single those out and help them, those who really need it.

But unfortunately, the rich guy who lost his vacation beach house, and the poor folks who lost everything they had, get grouped together as victims.

In no time, the Hurricane Aid funds will show up all over, and we will be reading about all the fraud that will be associated with it.

Just sad that so many will take advantage of this disaster.....


Dnk......

This situation is so sad it is just distressing. I wonder if the rest of the world will now pitch in to help as we helped after the tidal wave in S. Asia. I bet you they won't. One thing I am thinking after watching how hard it is rescueing people off the top of rooftops, is all communities that have any flooding danger should start a program to equip the emergency personel with Jet Ski and Tow Rafts like our lifeguards here in Hawaii all use. With proper training these guy's are able to get to people in danger in water situations under any conditions you could imagine, and do so in rapid fashion.

Well I don't like to be a grinch here but... Why the hell were they on the roof tops? They were told to evacuate, get out, run!! I saw interviews on Fox where some were saying "we're going to ride it out and not leave our home" I realize for the most part they are mostly uneducated people w/o resources, but come on, they understand english. DANGER, Big hurricane coming - get out.

Learjet9
As gfretwell said, some of these people are on the economic edge, They have nowhere to go and in a few cases no way to get there. Of course your point is partially valid as there are always a few striving for a Darwin Award.

Favorite quote of the day:
Picture a woman standing on her porch in ankle deep water talking to her towns' Mayor on CNN, "We want our power back!” Mayor's response, "That may take six to eight weeks.”

Quote"Well I don't like to be a grinch here but... Why the hell were they on the roof tops? They were told to evacuate, get out, run!! I saw interviews on Fox where some were saying "we're going to ride it out and not leave our home" I realize for the most part they are mostly uneducated people w/o resources, but come on, they understand english. DANGER, Big hurricane coming - get out. "

As of this morning, they might have to evacuate the super dome. Thats where the people who listened to the evacuation advice did go. This thing is a true monster.

I am not sure what is really going to happen to those people who lived in the poor part of town. If they rent, it will be years before new rental properties come on line and people who own older homes probably won't be able to afford to rebuild. We still have thousands of people in trailers at "FEMA village" in Punta Gorda with no idea of how they can leave or where they would go.
I bet more than half of these people are not insured. Flood, Windstorm and homeowners (3 separate policies) can easily be $3000 or more a year for a shack. Windstorm will typically have a 10% deductible that you have to pay up front, if you do buy it. For these folks, it might as well be a million.

I think gfretwell makes a very valid point. In FL they don't allow communities to spring up in areas that are not at least 11' above sea level. To allow NO to re-build as it was, some 7' below sea level is just asking for a repeat performance. I know this is cruel under the circumstances, but it might be better to level NO and re-build on higher land. I mean the city is virtually destroyed anyway.

Sanity check ....
Would you go up into an attic in a flood?
Even if there was no exit?

I think I am going to abandon ship before the water gets to the bottom of the tie beam.
I do bring my "locate" kit from the boat into the house along with a few PFDs when we are looking at a storm, even though this is not a likely flood plain.
In New Orleans I think I would wear a PFD in a rain storm. The place is a submarine. :confused

One thing for sure, when they rebuild, all road condtruction should be not less then 10ft above sea level, any new homes, or business construction should not be less then 10 ft above sea level, all high rise buildings, should have mechanical rooms, on top floors, they need to do a lot of planning down there, before they rebuild.

The first question NOLA needs to answer is where will the labor live?
With this much building going on, I bet the new signs will be in spanish, not french..

On the "looters", when I said all this stuff would be written off, I didn't mean because it was stolen. I mean they are not going to sift through a pile of stuff that has been wet for 3 months looking for something without too much black mold on it.
If the "shopper" has dry shoes on he is a looter.
If he is knee deep in water he is just rooting through the dumpster.

Finally got an up-date through a relitive of my friend down there. Apparently after the hurricane, they left the hotel where he works at, to see about his wifes shop, (which had some minor damage, at the time) then went to check on family across the canal, who were also fine. Then the levees broke! Now they have no idea of the condition of their bussiness, or apartment containing thier personal belongings, and have headed to Atlanta to stay with other relitives.

As for looting, from what I understand, at this point, in NOLA proper, looting is now "Supervised" by the police. I'm not saying that to be aggressive or off in tone... But from what I understand, all supermarkets and drug stores are now public property by eminant domain, and comandeared other like property as well. Yesturday, I saw footage of a cop saying, "Stay clear of the store until we get out, and then you all can have at what ever is left over. You gatta do what you need to to do to survive at this point."

On the other hand, poeple looting the department stores are another story all together. And from what I understand, that it is now on a shoot to kill basis in at least one parish there now. Which apparentley works really well, as it all but stopped that type of activity in that parish. And lets make no mistake, that the people doing that were of already desparate stock to begin with, before this event. Poverty is an epidemic there, and only breeds desparation. And it is the most poverty stricken areas that got the worst of the flooding. It is also very well known by people who live there that the reason rents are so low in those areas is because those areas were well known death traps for this exact situation. (Simular situation happened in the 60's) No sensable buisiness savy individual, or company would invest money there due to these exact risks. Studied on this situation have been done over, and over again, and most of the area is un-insurable. They knew for a long time that those levees would eventualy fail, just didn't know when.

Hopefully, the authorities gain control and grasp of the current situation soon. Or it may come down to martial law there relitively soon if the Fed. Gov. doesn't send immediate aid. Rebuilding there is going to take years!

Gentlemen:
Yes, 'flood insurance' is a costly item, and mandatory if you carry a mortgage. There are some places here in NJ that you would not 'see' being in a flood area....but.

WE got hit with "Floyd" a few years back; Town of Bound Brook had 15'(+/-) of water on Main Street. I was shook at the damage to the business area, and all the possesions that were piled on the street for disposal. That only lasted a few days......how long will NOLA be under water???

As to the looting; a NO police officer said last nite some words to the effect ...I can see them stealing food & water....but $200 sneakers from Footlocker?? I lived in Newark, NJ during the famous 'riots' of the '60's, and saw pilaging firsthand.

Shooting may be a popular comment, but what 'good' may it do?? I saw a lot in Newark, the cops; the Guard; the North Ward Vigalante's; and a lot of blood. It did no good then, and I doubt if it would help any in NO.

'nough said on that....

Good point, where will the tradesmen 'live'? FEMA is sending in mobile dorms; PSE&G has 20+/- line crews en-route, hope they have a place to stay.

John

I know this stating the obvious, but I see this as a MAJOR civil engineering failure. How (dramatic pause) can anyone, let alone many ones, plan a city this way? I know, it evolved into this, the history of which I'm sure has plenty of justification along the way. But I am still at an absolute loss to understand, especially in today's day and age with mentalities like OSHA, EPA, etc, etc. where you almost need precedure and permission to breath, and yet they would alow this gun to slowly be loaded, cocked and let mother nature pull the trigger. Where was the redundancy?? Was the contigency plan all along to abandon ship??

I am not a big fan of regulation, but I don't see how you can justify allowing to rebuild without MAJOR improvments. I'm sure it will get rebuilt, but I think it is irresponsible to allow something that will put the foolish and irrational at risk as well the the rational that will be called upon to rescue.

NOLA has a sorted history of drainage...

Long-story short, it was above sea level when built, and slowly sank. Some engineers came up with ways of saving it several times over, as it sank further over a few hundred years. FYI, they had plans to re-do the levees but I believe they lost funding... Several times.

Check out this: http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/history/NO_Drainage/NO_Drain_chap3.pdf

Another one: http://www.time.com/time/reports/mississippi/orleans.html

It seems to me that, if they're going to have a city where they have it, that they should have compartmentalized levees, just like a battleship is compartmentalized. That way, the failure of a levee only floods a small area, instead of the whole city. As JPS said, they need redundancy.

Had to re-size that... http://hurricane.lsu.edu/floodprediction/katrina25/images/overlayB.JPG

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-01-2005).]

Glad to hear your friend made it through e57.
This thing only gets worse as the scope of the damage is revealed. Yesterday I was disgusted at the looting and last night there were reports of roving bands of thugs robbing and shooting at police!! I don't have much sympathy for people who ignore warnings and expect government to be responsible for meeting their every need. I do feel for those who lost everything. I keep thinking of that small electrical contractor who just lost his home, truck, etc. If he is able to work, how is he going to get materials, replacement tools, transportation, gas?? The challanges are almost overwelming. I'm going to make a donation to a relief organization today, how about some others on this forum join me?
KB

Beleive it or not - on one of the morning shows they interviewed a family, who despite the order for total and mandatory evacuation have vowed to remain in their destroyed house until they "can't stay anymore." The rescuers told them it was now or never as they will not be back. I guess you can't help those that don't want to be helped. But in reality, rescuers will have to put thir lives on the line again for these idiots in the not to distant future.

You can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

After watching alot of the news casts coming in, it is evident that alot of the people still there, don't get it. They don't have a clue. All they want to do is complain, about the government. Why this, why that?

The government itself was destroyed, emergency vehicles were destroyed, or can't get around. Hospitals were destroyed or can't operate. There is no quick fix here.

Even if the Government proposed to fly them all out of there, say to a military base, and provide shelter and food for them, and in return, the people had to pitch their own tents, clean up after themselves, until the situation got under control, I bet most of them wouldn't go. You can tell them all day long, that they are living in a polluted lake, with disease coming on, and all they would do is complain.

Don't get me wrong, I have a compansionate heart for the suffering of some of the people caught up in this disaster, but I am really getting ticked off at the absulote stupidty of most of what I see being provided by the media.

If my house was substantially intact and not "wet" they would have a hard time getting me to leave.

Why do we have wars when we have natural disasters?

I'm sure after this disaster, the Islamic terrorists are taking a vacation from planning to annihilate our country. Instead, they are probably just glued to the TV with smiles on their faces. I'm sure it will be a short vacation though.

As a matter of fact, the jihadists have deemed this a vengeful act of allah, and have given hurricane Katrina the rank of "private" in allahs army.

This is NOT a policitical statement, as it involves BOTH/ALL parties... Our President was on Vacation for a few days still, after Katrina, and our Congress STILL is.

The relief agencies need the orders to go. And the only way they get those orders, is if thier managers give the order. And thier managers and directors don't give the order unless they get the word from the Federal Government. And the Federal Goverment is on vacation. For instance: Joint Task Force Katrina has been organized days ago by the military, and have not recieved the word to go yet.

This is going to dwarf 911 in size and scope when its all tallied up at the end, and its getting more expensive financially, and socially by the minute. By the time resources, funding and more importantly, organization truely arrive, I believe they will be used to initially institute martial law. There are people saying that war zones are better organized than what is happening in major cities of the south of this country.

As for people who didn't take heed to the order to evacuate. Think about the time it was given. (Much farther in advance than anytime in history.) About 24 hours, from when it went to Cat-5. And you didn't know where to run until 12 hours before. Thats if you own a car. Many people there don't. Even then there were traffic jams hundreds of miles long.

Talked to my friend yesturday, (who also doesn't own a car, one of the reasons I was worried about him.) he and a Bosnian friend of his borrowed another friend of thiers car, who was on vacation at the time. They figure they did him a favor by, and wont mind them stealing it. As he put it, "it would be an aquarium by now." They then had to take this Corrola, and four wheel it north, and then east. He said it was like three whole states had the bomb dropped on them. He also said that the attention being given to the looting, and gas prices is ridiculous compared to the REAL problems. Like food, water, and medical personel. That was his opinion, and I think I share that.

Shame on the federal government of the United States of America. What a disgrace.

I'l throw in my 2 cents before this thing gets closed down......

Shut off the TV and the radio. A situation like this should (and is) bring out the best in humanity. The worst in humanity will always be there. But I think that in a situation like this..., to constantly feed into the negative is not good, not healthy, and I personally think evil. How many of you are troubled by all this? I can only imagine everyone. I personally think it is far better to be troubled because of your own simpathy and compassion rather than everyone else's shortcomings, mistakes, and/or outright evil activity. Take a break from being fed all the garbage to just outrage you enough to stay tuned. I did and it did me some good.

My family and I are giving $20-$30 to the Red-Cross via my school tomorrow or next week. I can't believe all the devastation down there. I'm glad to see Bush is already reacting to this disaster. I can't blame people for stealing food, but 46" TVs and new computers, NO! Why steal electronics when they're probably worthless by now after being under one or two rounds of water? I saw a story on the local news of a person who looted an electronics store, and wanted to know if he could bring his new HDTV and computer onto the bus he was taking out of town. It is going to take a long time to rebuild New Orleans, but IMHO, they shouuuldn't rebuild it until they can fix the elevation problem.

My 2cents worth
Ian A.

"Shame on the federal government of the United States of America. What a disgrace."
____________________________________________

Never in my lifetime did i think, i would say this, but i agree, What a disgrace.