ECN Forum
Posted By: SvenNYC Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 03:08 PM
Wondering if anyone here has had an opportunity to try out this latest "ooh-ahhh-pretty" wiring device.

Legrand/P&S has come out with this receptacle where you pigtail a prewired plastic plug into the wallbox.

After everything is done, you just plug this connector into the back of the mating socket.

Somehow I keep thinking this method is just adding one more point where connections can loosen or rust and overheat.

The website does better justice at explaining it.
http://www.passandseymour.com/whatsnew/plugtail.html
Posted By: LearJet9 Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 03:58 PM
Though I have not used them, it looks like a great product. At my 1st opportunity I'll try them. My 1st question is of course - cost?
Posted By: SolarPowered Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 04:24 PM
It looks to me like one more thing that can fail. Connectors are always the weak point in electrical systems.
Posted By: iwire Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 04:41 PM
I agree with Lear these would be the best thing since sliced bread if the cost is right.

That is assuming the connector is of quality construction.

Many commercial buildings already use plug together wiring systems, that work well as the connectors are of good quality.
Posted By: rad74ss Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 05:07 PM
It seems like a pretty good idea.

That is if the cost of the recept and plug offset what extra time you would be paying for using the normal method.

I would like to see what these look like after a couple of years of use and abuse especially how the plug stands up to heat. Or at least what tests they had to go through to get them approved by UL or whoever else puts their stamp on them.
Posted By: chipmunk Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 05:25 PM
I also like the idea, again with the provision the connector is of good quality with 'tight' connections. I also really like the concept of the circuit identifier label under the outlet plate, and the 'preattached poly bag' to prevent mud/paint/grit/dust etc entering the connector. This seems a well thought out product. Now the interesting thing would be to hook one to a low voltage AC supply and feed 25 amps through it (5A greater than the breaker rating it would be connected to) for 2 weeks continuously in an enclosed space. And see what it looks like after that [Linked Image]

If it survives, quality product.
Posted By: Tiger Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 06:01 PM
I wouldn't want to post any disparaging remarks about rockers here, although I'm very tempted. I'd be reluctant to install anything like this at rough, though it looks great on paper.

Love and Peace
Dave
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 06:20 PM
This has been around for quite a while. The fact that you haven't seen them being used may speak volumes. This is a special interest item that I doubt the accountants can justify as a cost saver. The classic product in search of a market.
Perhaps someone would spec this if they thought it would help the maintenance man in the future but I don't see bad receptacles as being that big a maintenance problem. Reliability wise your money is better spent in simply using a quality device with screwed in connections.
Posted By: John Crighton Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 08:42 PM
I'd be happier with beryllium-copper contacts in the plug. Brass just isn't very springy, especially at higher temperatures.

One question comes to mind: Is the "plugtail" part of the device? Here's why I'm asking.

If I install a receptacle on a multiwire circuit, NEC requires me to loop or pigtail the neutral. With this device, I assume I'd wirenut the white plugtail lead with the two neutral wires. But if the plugtail is part of the device, then that's a violation.

Even if it's not part of the device, if the receptacle is replaced later with a conventional one, disconnecting the plugtail opens the neutral temporarily, which violates the intent of the NEC.

This would definitely be a timesaver when installing a second receptacle alongside a GFCI, though.
Posted By: George Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 08:54 PM
If the "plug-tail" is installed as part of the required switched light in a room, does the rest of the device need to be installed prior to the final by a licensed professional or can it be installed by a homeowner?

I like them, but I expect they are too expensive.
Posted By: e57 Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 10:34 PM
I imagine the connector filled with mud, then liberly painted, after being rotozipped to shreds.
Posted By: NJ Wireman Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 10:48 PM
If you took the time to twist your feed in and out neutrals and hots during your rough you could disconnect the pig tails while still hot and not loose any circuits down line. the problem is everyone is lazy and just sticks the wires under the tan wire nut and twist . take a second and do some quality control and twist them wires.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/12/05 10:52 PM
Looks like a new fangled back stab receptacle to me.

And we all should know how well back stabbing receps last....


No thanks......


Dnk.......
Posted By: electure Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 01:18 AM
I was given a sample of one of these at a Trade Show. It really seems to be a good quality built product.

But then... there's the cost. I've been afraid to find out :eek
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 01:33 AM
Eeek! is the word
http://www.aplussupply.com/ps/plugtail.htm
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 08:36 AM
Thinking laterally, enterprising electricians could get the advantages of this method without spending $25 a unit. Just prewire ordinary receptacles with suitable lengths of flying wires stripped ready for use, in your shop/ at home, perhaps even some made up for stock.
Set up on a bench with tools and materials at hand, the time taken in prewiring would be far less than on-site assembly, ie a production line versus handbuilt. On site, make the connections with wirenuts in your usual way. Any problems with this?
Alan
Posted By: iwire Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 10:48 AM
The company I work for has a large warehouse and they prefab a lot of things.

I doubt we would save much pre installing whips on outlets. When we rough we install pigtails in each box for the receptacle or switch.

It looks like the current cost of the plug tails far exceeds the price of the time saved.
Posted By: iwire Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 10:50 AM
Quote
Looks like a new fangled back stab receptacle to me.

Not even remotely close, the only similarity is that they are both duplex receptacles.
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 11:48 AM
Hmmm, I'm getting deja vu here. I remember sitting in vocational school way back when and listening to the instructor telling us about this great new aluminum romex that just hit the market....

Let me know how this stuff works out.
Posted By: iwire Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 12:01 PM
No, that aluminum NM did not play out to well.

I hardly think that means any new product is destined for failure.
Posted By: Tiger Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 12:38 PM
I've never been satisfied with wrapping a stranded wire around a screw, so I typically pull stranded wire, then make up the devices with solid pigtails.

+1 on e57s comments. I wouldn't be buying these at 10% of their price. I'm sure they'll survive (somehow) without my business.

Dave
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 12:50 PM
I have to say, not directed at anyone particular, but what narrow minded bunch you are. As ususal quick to bash a product none of you has ever held in your hand let alone used. Good thing Thomas Edison had a better attitude or we'd all be making candles for a living.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 05:00 PM
Scott I think it was mostly the price that turned the troops off.
You can actually hold one for free, there is a place on the web site to get a sample. The second one costs $25.

BTW if we really listened to Edison we would be using DC today.
Posted By: iwire Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 05:08 PM
Quote
I think it was mostly the price that turned the troops off.

Well the price turned some of us off but in general I agree with Scott that many seem unwilling to try new things.
Posted By: growler Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 05:40 PM
If contractors don't use quality receptacles in the first place ( 40 cents apiece, residential quality ) what would make anyone think that they can get 20 bucks for one with a pig tail. That's more than the profit on a lot of new spec. homes. When the idea is to wire as cheap as possible ( trim that last dollar ), why add a device that adds to the cost with no real advantages. This device looks more like some of the fising lures that are meant to catch the fisherman and not the fish.
Posted By: Larry Fine Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 06:05 PM
If they started at $19.50 for a box of 10, I'd consider them. Yikes!!!
Posted By: iwire Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 06:24 PM
Quote
That's more than the profit on a lot of new spec. homes. When the idea is to wire as cheap as possible ( trim that last dollar ), why add a device that adds to the cost with no real advantages.

I doubt highly this is aimed at dwelling units.

If they can get the price more in line with what we pay for our spec grade devices I am sure we would use them.

In the jobs we do it's less about material costs and more about how fast can we get the certificate of occupancy.




[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 08-13-2005).]
Posted By: Roger Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 07:21 PM
I agree that these are more commercial (or large job) oriented at this time.


If these were purchased in a package or "buy out" for a large job (say 500 receptacles or more) verses an industrial spec grade receptacle, I would venture to say they would be very competitive in price.

On the other hand, there's no competing with the deal(s) on this receptacle , take note of the savings when bought in quantity. [Linked Image]

Roger
Posted By: Tiger Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/13/05 09:02 PM
I use my imagination prior to purchases. What do I come up with on this one?

Damaged pigtails that need replacing on final. That doubles the cost of expensive materials and adds labor, reducing my profit. In a situation that doesn't involve sheetrock this might be the perfect product.

I'm a big believer in using the best materials (QO over Homeline), but I'll pass on this one.

Dave
Posted By: harold endean Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/14/05 04:07 PM
I was always willing to try new products when they came on the market when I was in Business.
However the cost of an item is one of the big reasons for either using a product or not.
Another thought comes to mind with this new product, what about closed boxes. The ones that get covered up by the rockers. If the recptacle had one of these products your circuit would still work and you might not even know that you are missing an outlet.
Posted By: Larry Fine Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/14/05 08:25 PM
Maybe not, but the missing receptacle should be noticed when the remaining receptacles' spacing seems rather far.
Posted By: CTwireman Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/14/05 09:40 PM
Wow, Scott's right, what a bunch of narrow minded skeptics. [Linked Image]

I think this is a great product. As far as cost goes, yeah, it may be expensive now, but as interest grows and demand increases, the price will surely decrease. Remember when the new "lockout" GFCI's came out? They were about $12, now I can get them for $7.

Furthermore, the price quoted in this thread is one price from an online distributor. Has anyone gotten an "over the counter" price or talked to an inside salesperson at their distributor? And did anyone else notice the part numbers on that website: 5262, 5362, 8200, and 8300. Industrial spec and hospital grade stuff, not exactly on the cheap end for even a regular receptacle.


Some of you don't think this will save any labor? [Linked Image] Let's take Roger's example of a large job that might require 500 receptacles. You have a pre-made pigtail that you install on the rough. 3 wirenuts, done. Come time for final, you go around, plug the thing in, zip in 2 screws, done. It seems like that would save a lot of labor to me.

Damaged pigtails? So what. That can happen with any pigtail, homemade or factory made.

Now, I'm sure I'll get accused of being paid by P&S to say all this or something to that effect. [Linked Image] Let it be known that I'm not a P&S buyer but I really like this idea.

-Peter



[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 08-14-2005).]
Posted By: Tiger Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/14/05 10:07 PM
If you call it narrow minded skeptic or conservative, I guess I resemble that remark.

When I use a product and it doesn't work, I fix it as warranty work at my own expense. Often it's like pulling a $100 bill out of my pocket and running it through the office shredder.

After doing that 5 or 10 times you can tend to get conservative or narrow minded.

Case in point...several years ago I was using 15-amp GFCIs and had them fail within warranty. I replaced two of them and went to installing 20-amp GFCIs. Maybe the 15-amp UL2003 GFCIs are more reliable, but I still use 20-amp GFCIs.

I'm not for experimentation. I'm for finding high quality and reliability and staying with it.

Dave
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Plug-Tail receptacles?! - 08/15/05 08:46 AM
Scott, I think you are right. I am a narrow minded type nowadays. I no longer just jump right on the new stuff everytime, and it just because of previous times where I used stuff that I later regretted. As in insulation piercing wire taps for #14 cu wire instead of wire nuts. For about 6 month several years back I thought they were the greatest. I nicknamed em whizby's, cause I was moving so fast. Then the failures on the connectors started. I loved electronic ballasts when they first came out. I cannot count how many did not make the 1 year warrenty birthday. Those fixes came out of my pocket also. So my post basicly is You guy's try em out first, I watch, If they are all that they are cracked up to be then I will jump on the bandwagon also.
© ECN Electrical Forums