I was asked this today due to a wrong spec on a job. The shade company required a 12-2 romex at each window shade location for power, so I did it. I went there today to start the install and reading the shade info it needs a 12-3 romex to work. The shade guy wants to use the ground conductor as a neutral and I told him no way no how. I am just thinking now though what is the real reason behind this. Safty because no ground? The current on the neutral now is not insulated on it's return trip?

"Safty because no ground? The current on the neutral now is not insulated on it's return trip?"

YES
And
YES (Could also cause ground / neutral contact in a metalic box - after the main.)

Oh, been in this situation before...

If its you fault... Look into romote control ones, cheaper than re-finish sometimes.

Not your fault, T&M C/O!

OK, the bare conductor will be carrying the current as you said, and basically be "live" to a grounded object, box, etc; or a person.

YES it is a saftey issue, yes, it is NOT NEC compliant, and yes you are 100% right saying 'no way'.

I have seen instances where EMT was used as the 'neutral' for a 30 amp, 120 volt circuit that consisted of ONE 'hot' conductor. Yes, it worked, but the setscrew couplings were not tightened properly and started arcing. It almost caused a fire, as the EMT was installed on a wall that had clothing racks mounted on it.

Some of the 'old timers' used to say "gyp the ground" when you had a 'open' neutral to restore the circuit; heck I saw BX armour that was 'live' arcing on suspended ceiling grid.

You're right; illegal, unsafe, and not to be done.

John

Oh, what the heck, as long as it works, right?

*rollseyes

What "electrician" walks away from a job thinking it's ok to use EMT as the grounded conductor?

Er, misread something

[This message has been edited by dmattox (edited 07-29-2005).]

I know not to do it and will get paid to fix it. The shade system is part of a larger system that is all tied together for controlling lighting, video and sound systems so doing anything but snaking in new cables will not work.

Good choice.

Do not listen to "The Shade Guy" he is not NEC trained and he is not on the hook if the electrical portion of the shades causes a problem.

Would you tell him how to hang drapes?

Because, 334.108 Equipment Grounding.

In addition to the insulated conductors, the cable shall have an insulated or bare conductor for equipment grounding purposes only.

Thanks guys. I know not to do it just wanted to make sure I was right in my reasons, besides the code.

I have wired these types of setups and they can be tricky enough without the fact that the people that spec them have no clue what they need to spec.

I love it "when trades collide."

I also can guess where the confusion originated....MC and romex count the wires differently.

Of course, when you were given your instructions, you were not given any info as to the needs of the shade- you were expected to just "know" somehow!

If you're very lucky, the first romex was "fished" into place, and pulling a new one won't invlve tearing up the wall.

No info at all. I was told the shades only needed power and a 12-2 would be fine. The problem is I was not doing any of the controlls for them. I looked at the controlls and could have seen it there that the shade needed 4 conductors, ground, neutral , power up and power down.
There is no neat way about replacing the wires as the insane amounts of holes I had to make while snaking them in can not be made again. The problem all this brings is and I can see it coming, money. The homeowner is going to go nuts due to the delays and trades just not keeping to schedule. I am working for the low voltage guy who happens to be the shade installer and audio visual guy all in one. They are surely going to hold off in paying the contractor who then is going to hold off in paying, guess who, ME. I love it and it only gets better.

Wow, you make it all sound sooo familiar...

You could go the other way in the future and beat people over the head with a stick for complete spec, cut-sheets, and install instructions. You would then only piss people off, (like I have) and as there was no resulting problem, they would never know why you were so aggressive about it.

On the other hand, if it makes money, work it...