Detached shop. Builder ran conduit from house to shop. OK, run 2 20 amp circuits, 3 o/s outlets, 3 o/s lights, 4 switchs, 4 inside lights, 8 outlets. Builder will supply lights. Just want to see what you guys come up with on a price. Thanks

Kg18, is "owner" an occupation? Sounds more like a homeowner that's trying to see if the builder is charging too much. He probably is. But the only thing you can do is call a local licensed electrician and get a quote ( call someone close and not the biggest add in the book ). The area that you live in can make a huge difference in price.

No need to be a wise guy! I just passed my contractor exam and this will be my first job. Its just a small job but ya gotta start somewhere. I came up with somewhere between $800 and $1000. All I want is some advice. Thanks

Depends on alot of things:

What is the going rate where you are at, per hour?

Buider supplies lights? Uh-oh. "Could be trouble" What kind, and what if they are missing parts?

Conduit, Mc, NM? What is your wiring method?

2 circuits? 4 switches?, what type of disconnect you using?

Sub panel? You may need a ground rod?


Ok, enough of that....

Point is, it is tooo difficult to price it without knowing particulars.

Sounds like 2 days work, maybe $150 in materials without a sub panel.

(16X$75)+ $200(markup materials)=$1400.

But that's just a guess, and don't forget permit fees and inspections!


Dnk.......

If this is a detached building and you need more than 1 circuit you must have a subpanel in the detached building, so keep that in mind. As far as pricing the job, too many variables exist to even guess at a fair price, but welcome to the board.

Kg18, didn't mean to be a wise guy. If you would change your profile to show electrical contractor the mistake will not be made in the future.There is no slot for time in grade so an EC is an EC. Soon you will take a dim view of a homeowner trying to second guess a fellow EC. Dnkldorf is probably right on the time, if your hourly rate is the same then run with it. The good thing about small jobs, You can't loose much and you learn from experience.

I think that giving pricing over the internet is not wise. Is kg18 an electrician? Is he an EC? Is he someone who is completley inept at electrical work and just going to hurt himself?
If he is an electrician he should be able to figure it out on his own. If he is an EC he needs to learn how to bid some other way than a "web site" from people who learned this trade by experience.

JMHO

Rob

sierra,
You have to take the good with the bad here.
Sure there is going to be HO's, who come to this site and want to double check either EC's or GC's.
I realize this site isn't intended for that, but if keeps the scamming EC's at bay, I'll try to help them out.

As far as him being an electrician, and finding out on his own how to do things, isn't that what this site is for?


Dnk......

" Giving pricing out over the internet is not wise". Exactly Right. I'm all for keeping scaming EC's at bay. I recommend getting three estimates from local, qualified electrical contractors. I have found sites on the internet that quote some unbelievably low prices for electrical work. If a homeowner reads them, they will be sure to think they are getting riped-off. Where do you get a 200 AMP service upgrade for $1100.00 or a 1500 sq. ft house completely rewired for $2000.00. These are just made up quotes by poeple that are never going to do the work ( useless ). Some poor home buyer gets an old house thinking that these are the real cost of repairs. Experience can be a harsh teacher. The only price that matters is the one you can get the work done for. Everything else is just speculation.

Electrical cost estimating books (bid or Boggie books) are available at your local book store....If anyone here bids, it they will need to include a per diem and travel expenses...you wouldn't get a good price at all.

Dnk...all I can say is that if you bid it for 1.4K in the bay area you would be bankrupt in a week. A journeyman is making more than 40/hr in some counties. But now in South Texas if you bid it for that you'd never get any work, there the non union shops can find help for 16.hr

And lastly are there any NEC Article 500 > 503 issues to be concerned with, will there be dust, paint, or gases. My brothers neighbor built a “little wood shop” (12x16), out back and never thought that the dust from the sander would ignite when he turned on a drill. (It was a small fire and no one was seriously hurt.) Though there may not be any legal requirement for the HO’s shop space, I would cover it in the pre bid discussion with him.

I think the best advice I could give a fledgling EC, or any other prospective small businessman, is to have plenty of money before you start. Like the old joke goes, the best way to make a small fortune is to start with a big one.
The problem is if you bid high you won't get a lot of work but bidding low is worse. You get plenty of work and lose money on every job.
Being a good electrician may be one of the least important skills in actually being a successful electrical contractor. Managing the money is the hard part.


[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 07-06-2005).]

I somewhat disagree with most of your posts and this is why:

Taking into account, that labor prices do vary from location to location as pointed out by Ray, guys in the bay area and probably hawaii vs guys from Oklahoma and texas, will make a difference, BUT:

I totally disagree with those of you who stated the iternet is not a place to provide pricing, or is not wise.

How many of us search ebay for things?
How many of us buy things online because you found it cheaper here?
How many new cars are bought online, because it is cheaper than the sleaze ball dealers?

Whether it is our trade or someone elses, consumers need to get an idea of what things go for, whether it is in the form of 3 or 4 quotes from local contractors or whether from a online source.
Make no mistake about this, there are sites already out there. Some of you may find them ridicolous(spelling), but they will provide information to consumers. And there will be more to come in the future.

I am all for it.

I don't do too much residential work, but I do, as a free service to people, tell them how much they should look forward to spending when hiring someone in my area.

Myself as a consumer, I want to know, what is the going rate for a HVAC guy, I want to know what the going rate of a plumber is.
This way, when some screwball, gives me a price of $500 to charge my AC unit up a pound, I can tell him to take a hike.

My area has a ton of "Scammers", guys who take out full page adds, lease a bunch of trucks, and pull out those "pricing books", and tell people this is the going rate.


However, if people really knew that parts sold at the supply houses for a complete service go for @$500, and you pay a guy 8hrs to do it, the bill should be somewhere around $1500. Give and take for the obvious complications, but $5000 being the norm?
And the panel is in the garage!

$525 to change out a gfci? Because he has a high overhead?

Cut me a break.....

Arming consumers with information is a good thing, and we are all consumers of something.


Dnk...........

Dnk, consumers are also part of the problem. They do not understand overhead. In my short foray into low voltage wiring on my own I was constantly harrangued about my prices. I told folks it was $100 to start my truck and $20 a drop, plus materials and barring any complications.
I figured out I was losing money fast.
Once they started calling around they figured out I was the cheapest guy in town.
It's why I went broke (figuratively).
When IBM was doing it they would not touch a job for less than $50,000 and they lost money.

You bet they are part of the problem, the guy who thinks everything should cost less than $50, would get a real eye opener when he sees that an electrician in his area should get $75-$100hr plus trip charge.

He might just come to the realization that nothing can get done these days for $50.


Dnk.....

If you have a high overhead, you have to charge more to cover it, no brainer.

To be competitive, you have to keep overhead down.

A guy with a ton of overhead is easy to compete against, and if not controlled, that guys overhead puts him out of business in no time.

Don't bite off more than you can chew theory.

Having said all this on this topic, the best quality guy with the fairest prices, "not the cheapest" never seems to struggle, ever....

Dnk.....

When people find a good builder, plumber, electrician, or car mechanic, they hang on to them, they tell their friends. If you build up a good reputation you will never be short of work. So try to bid a fair price, maybe a bit more for the jobs you hate.

Dnk....unless you entend to do residential electrical work in your area, your pricing guide means nothing. I don't mean to offend in any way, but that's like me trying to quote what a mechanic should charge. I know what I would like to pay but that doesn't get the car fixed. When you buy something on the internet it gets shipped to you, try shippig an electrician by UPS. Even if you went around doing work for free in your area it wouldn't change the overall dynamics of the pricing game. The going rate is whatever the public will bear in a given area. These " scammers" as you call them have changed the pricing structure in our area. As they make more money, they can afford more advertising, as they get more customers they can make more money. If you think that giving poeple more reasonable rates will get you business, then think again. I have regular customers that expect rates from 10 years ago and when they don't get it, guess who they call. The scammers with the " flat rate saves you money add". Poeple are stupid and should be charged every last penny that a contractor can get.

I agree with growler - When people ask me how much something should have or will cost, I tell them what my price would be, not what someone else's price SHOULD be. I never second guess another EC. Likewise I never slam another EC. We are all just trying to make a living. There are lowlife guys out there who will bad mouth the competition just to make themselves look better, but people see thru that pretty quickly.

Clarification: I agree with growler on most of his points, I do not agree that in general, people are stupid and should be charged every last penny ~~ etc. I beleive in fairness, we've been in business since 1980, our reputation of being fair honest and competent has been the reason we have kept our customers for so long. We don't do residential work, but our commercial customers for the most part, don't even bother to get competitive quotes anymore.

Learjet, I don't even believe in that last penny thing. I was in a bad mood for awhile. Some people can do that to you. If you were to see my invoices, you would know that I'm more fair than most. But my prices are my prices and I can't quote for the guy down the street and I definately can't quote across the country. If pricing is done up-front and agreed to, then it's a legal transaction and it's up to the consumer to shop for a better deal if they can find it. Those "scammers" are now the most successful service contractors in my area. I'm not going to work for 40% of what they charge just to brag about how honest I am. If my advertising cost go up because people respond better to big adds, then the cost get passed along to some one. Who says that a gallon of gas is worth $2.50, we do because we pay it. The customer always sets the price for any goods or services, when they stop buying the price goes down.

The bright side of the scammers is that some of their duff work will need attention in the future by more competent ECs, so long as no one is hurt by it! Would be better without them though.

Explanation is in order here.
This may get winded, so bear with me.

These "scammers" that I refer to are this:

These are the EC's, I have friends (ex) that own these business and also have friends that work for them. It seems they all originated after one idiot who changes his company name every 2-3yrs. Maybe you have the same type in your area.

The scam goes something like this:
A call is placed. The electrician, who is a subcontractor, is dispatched. He is instructed to locate the residence, drive around the nieghborhood, and put a call back in with the following info:
1. Condition of homes in the area.
2. make and model of cars in the residence driveway, and surrounding driveways.
3. Appearance of homes, ie landscaaping and such.
Then comes the confrontation with the homeowner. They are instructed to listen to the problem, and watch the persons reactions to a series of resolutions. The "banger" being an emergency service upgrade.
The electrician is to notice everything in the house included what type of TV's, jewerly being worn, and you name it.
However, the electrician is trained to act dumb, never to answer any technical questions upfront.
He then, calls his "supervisor" who really is the closer of this arangement, and the closer talks to the customer, only after the electrician divulges secretly to the closer the above info on cars, homes, ect.

This is where it gets good.

Women and the elderly are most often told of "fire hazzards" and "electrocution" hazzards, with regards with personel safety,
and how children are vulnurable.

It is the scare tactic.

The whole idea is to get the customer to sign the release form. The majority of people never read the whole form. This "release form" as they call it is actually a contract, worded in such a way, that you almost give up your house in court.

Once the closer, proposes a price, upwards in the $5-6K range for this emergency service, and the release is signed, the first thing the helper does is kills power to the house, now work has begun, this is called the point of no return for the customer.

If the customer doesn't sign the form, or is sceptical of $5K for the service, the electrician, who was trained on what to do next, states the following:

Hey look, I know my boss may be a liitle high, but I have the materials on my truck, and I can do it $3k if you want.

Either way, the sub gets 40% of the job. The closer keeps 60% of whatever the job gets sold for. And the sub gets paid cash, no taxes, nothing to report.

This practice of "banging the elderly", women with kids is appaling.

The idea, "that get every penny that you can", is wrong too, or maybe I have higher morals, I don't know.

Maybe, I am disgusted with these guys, and hate every one like them who tend to give the rest of us a bad rap.

But thanks for reading...


Dnk.........

I hear ya growler, I've had those days too. I can say this - Anytime I am aware a non-licensed EC is working, and it's a rare find, I immediately call the local inspector and file a complaint. We have a large national company based in another state doing work for CVS/pharmacy. Not only are then not licensed in MA, they are not licensed anyplace, and are not competent electricians. Of course they can't take out a permit so they seldom get caught. But CVS took the lowest bidder and they got the work. I will/have reported them every time I see them working. So, if any of you guys see exterior fluorescent lighting going up (it's actually replacement) on any CVS store in the MA/RI/NH area those guys with the OH plates are are unlicensed.

Dnk... I'm sure I didn't understand what you were talking about before. I thought that you ment flat rate from a price book as opposed to hourly rates. What you are talking about sounds more like some sort of con game. It sould be illegal and if it's not I'm sure that a talk with a local inspector would make sure they don't pass too many inspections. The poeple that I suggested getting money from don't need to sign over a mortgage to get work done. They live in multimillion dollar homes and have servants. I don't see any reason to help the rich get any richer. My childhood hero was Robin Hood and I haven't changed much in my thinking. I don't find many homes that need a service upgrade unless they have a big addition or a large hot tub and not many poor people go in for that sort of thing. The last old granny lady I worked for used to own an insurance company and lives in an exclusive neighborhood across from the country club. This is why you can't go around quoting prices on the net. We are talking about completely different worlds. If I see anyone scamming the poor I would at least report them . You don't scam the rich, you just charge them according to the effort it will take to get the job done. If anyone wishes to do a service upgrade on the mansion for $1500.00 they can have it. Many of the upper class spend that and more on a night out.