I am wondering what some of the other contractors policies regarding aluminum wiring are? I went for a bid today that started out as a service upgrade. The place is in escrow and the home inspector noted some stuff like the old rusted out Wadsworth 60A panel, some exposed romex in the utility room,a 3 wire dryer circuit and oh, THE WHOLE HOUSE IS WIRED IN AL. I said to the realtor, what does he recommend, rewiring the whole house? The realtor replied " Oh no, just the BRANCH CIRCUITS!"

Anyway I told them there is nothing I can do to make the AL safe short of rewiring. The only other fix is the Copalum method I said, which I am not licensed to do. CPSC does not endorse any other method, including the purple wirenuts or the AlCu devices.

I have decided that my policy on aluminum wiring will be to RUN. OK so I will rewire if they want, but I feel anything short of replacing it creates a big liability.

Any comments appreciated.
Big B

Bryan,
That's a rather interesting statement you make there.
There was a Moderator in the Chat room lately that was required to give a report on a house that had AL wiring in it and the buyer wanted to know what the situation with the wiring was.
In my own personal opinion, all AL wiring should be ripped out and copper installed.
I use enough of AL stuff with power lines and it is nothing short of a PITA to joint and work with.
The day when real estate agents have any real say in Electrical Safety, I'm hanging my tool-belt up.
Mind you I have leverage working for the PoCo here and I have been rung by Electricians here about houses that they've seen, I send an Electrical Inspector over there.
There aren't too many Real Estate agents here that would argue with a PoCo Inspector.

Big B, I think your right , Big Liability.
The problem as I see it, is the liability falls on the electrical contractor and not the Realtor or home inspector. In my area they shoulder no responsibility for safety.
4 out 5 contractors called will walk away but number 5 will do just what is called for.
If there was a way to educate the public, then no one would buy this house, some insurance companies wont touch it. There should be some sort of disclosure law about known hazards. But as usual safety takes a back seat to profit.

I think "aluminum problems" fall into 2 categories. Either there was a bad install in the first place or harry homeowner was in there "improving" things.
The fact that there are millions of aluminum wired homes that didn't burst into flames tends to say a properly installed system that nobody screwed with is probably OK. The owner of an aluminum home should have an extra layer of vigilence and they should leave repairs to pros but we say that anyway. ;-)

Even a pristine aluminum-wired system will need attention sooner or later. The problem is that the soft aluminum wire expands from normal warming and the hook flattens under the screw head.

As the connection cools, the flattened wire is slightly looser than before, and with normal load cycling, the process slowly snowballs until enough heat is created to cause damage.

If caught in time, however, a good re-tightening of the screws may even provide a better connection than the original installation because of the increased contact area with the ovalled wire.

If the wires were stabbed, they must be re-terminated. I've seen completely bare and clean aluminum conductors two feet (!) inside the wall above a receptacle box because someone tied a complete addition onto an existing receptacle.

Aluminum wiring , if it was installed properly, is fine as long as it is maintained. Meaning going through the entire electrical system and replace devices if they need be , re-tighten connections , generally check it out. The one big problem with AL. wiring is the heat. It can't handle any overheating.
Most people now days do not want to hear this and say all the electricians want is to scare us and get money from us.
I now just try and talk therm into replacing it.

Aluminum wiring, presents many problems, give the customer the facts, let them understand the risks involved, many of these homes are reaching 30 plus years, and over this time period, in most homes, there has been changes made, receptacles replaced, and usually with the wrong ones, circuit extensions added, not welded, instead, spliced with improper connectors, wires pulled from boxes, and pushed back in more, then a few times, causing wire fatigue, homeowners replacing light switches, with dimmers and switches not rated for AL wiring, some of these homes where changes have been made, are sure to have problems, it's not if they will, it's when.
No one wants to hear, that their biggest investement of their life, is full of potential hazards, so even if you inform them, of any faults in the wiring system, they will usually be in denial.
If a machanic informs me, that my breaks are bad, he is not trying to scare me, he is letting me know the condition of my vehicle.

"If installed correctly...."

Please indulge this old fart, while he reminices about the "Great aluminum wiring debate" in the late '60's and early '70's.

"Proper installation" was the rallying cry of the aluminum wire producers. IAEI (the electrical inspectors' group) led the charge against it.
Every month the IAEI documented case after case of aluminum wiring being the cause of property loss and injuries. And, every time it was shown that 'proper methods' were used, the manufacturers came up with some other excuse, some additional requirement.
It finally got to the point where the instructions were so convoluted that it was essentially impossible to comply with them, even in a laboratory setting. This, of course, meant that the wire makers could ALWAYS assert that the installation was at fault, not the material.
Despite their howls, eventually we got away from aluminum wire- to the benefit of all!

A similar thing happened in the '80's with poly-butaline plumbing tubing...only that one actually made it into court, where the industry failed to produce anyone who could make "correct" connections.

The standards for compatable materials changed so much, devices had to be re-tested and re-marked; thus the change form CU/AL to CO/ALR.

Let's face it...there were enough problems that we have to consider the experiment with aluminum wiring a failure.

Now all this puts Harry Homeowner in a bind. The stuff is found where- in older, lower-end housing, used by the very folks who can least afford a complete re-wire. And, if we don't deal with it somehow, Joe Handyman will. With predictable results.

I have not had to deal with the issue- yet. I'm not sure what I'd do if I did run across aluminum wire.
If I were doing a service change, I might consider seeing if AFCI's are any good.
If I were adding a receptacle, I'd make a home run to the panel.
If I was asked to replace a device...well, a re-wire of that circuit is probably the best bet.

Education is probably the best bet. Folks have to plan on a re-wire when they re-model or add on- and with the age of these buildings, it's only a matter of time before something gets updated.

I wish someone would evaluate the euro-style "choc-block" connector for these applications. The "choc-block" is essentially an insulated terminal strip, with a separate screw holding each wire in place. I suspact they would work out far better than even the purple wire nuts!

(for a pic of a "choc-block," see "Bathroom Electric," 11-02-04, Photos submitted for discussion forum.)

Correction: The thread I refer to was started 10-27-04, about seven pages back.

"Aluminum wiring , if it was installed properly, is fine"

In most homes, there has been changes made to these fine wiring jobs, and there in is the problem.

Most if not all of these installations, were done by tract contractors, at this same time custom homes, were still being wired with copper wire, the actual cost savings were just a few dollars, however on tract homes this cost savings for material could add up to a considerable amount, from the begining days of installation, there were warnings that alum wiring in homes would become a problem.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 06-19-2005).]

"Aluminum wiring , if it was installed properly, is fine"

I don't agree. There are many problems with aluminum wiring installed prior to 1973 or 4, even where it was correctly installed. The alloy used at that time was different, and there was too much difference in the temperature expansion of the conductor and the device termination screws. After that date, the alloy was changed and the CO/ALR devices had aluminum screws and back plates to limit the problems caused by different thermal expansion rates.
Don

Nope, most definitely not!!! The screws only give a very small contact surface and will loosen by time, just like device screws. Besides, choc blocks don't provide any corrosion protection. I've once in my electrical career seen alum wire in Austria, and it was spliced using choc blocks. To this day I keep one of the crisp choc blocks on my desk as reminder!
In Germany, mainly Eastern Germany where alum wiring is a big issue they onlly allow crimp splices or purple wire nuts, it's basically the only application for wire nuts there.
So my conclusion: Never use choc blocks for alum wiring! Otherwise I love them!!!

Thanks, Tex, for the info!

Except that the thread is indexed under the last posting, which was 11-14-2004..
I'll make it easier.. here's the link..

Bathroom Electric

Thank you< Techie...I am somewhat in the stone age....my first TV is less than three years old!

As a side note I'd like to mention the fact most German electricians have a deep mistrust against screw connections since they say screws will always loosen as the wire flattens, even copper, worse tinned stranded copper. Most of them only accept spring-pressure connectors like Wago as they say those connectors adjust the pressure to the wire. It seems like the internal construction of those connectors is substantially better than that of the evil US backstabbed receptacles.

Do you think that an AFCI ckt. breaker installed where the AL originates from would help? This may catch the arcing in time and trip the ckt?
Then if the AFCI breaker trips, it's time to gut the AL that's on that ckt. And or the whole house.

The last two jobs I have been on we pulled in parallel runs of aluminum cable in #3/0, 250kcmil, and 500kcmil sizes for 600/347Y distribution feeders.

My family owns a 31-suite apartment building (1973 contruction) wired entirely in aluminum. Over 15+ years, I have yet to encounter a burnt-out device. This fact is known to the mortgage and insurance co. It matters not to them.

#3/0, 250kcmil, and 500kcmil sizes, are not the problem, many contractors use larger size alum, with good results, the smaller gauges 10 and 12 are the cables of concern, we have had homes here with alum for 30 years plus, without a problem, they are usually homes, that have not had any changes made to the existing system, and fixture or recpt replacements have not been done.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 07-01-2005).]

My two prior homes were both wired with Al wiring.

The first, an upper-end home, was purchased directly from the prior homeowner when the renters vacated which turned out to be an advantage in the respect that they didn't bother to paint, especially around the outlets that had fried. This gave us the 'heads up' that we needed to pay close attention to the Al wiring issues. We were advised (by whom I have no idea) that the solution was fairly easy; replace any burnt components, add Cu to Al connectors on those that seem 'prone' to frying and tighten all the rest. We, harry homeowner, did as advised. We also had an FBN (fly-by-night) guy add a three-way switch at a split-level hallway juncture, just as you say is likely to happen. When we sold, through a realtor, it all passed 'inspection' and sold nicely.

Second home was a tract home (minus a husband by then), and the home inspector pointed out to me that the Al wiring looked pretty nice due to the fact that the developer in the late '60's had 3 electricians. One of them did an A+ job and the other two did A jobs, my house got the A+ guy and the inspector said since the electrical stuff looked good, felt tight and showed no evidence of frying, he'd suggest leaving it alone save one outlet that didn't work at all. For that, he said have the realtor (who owned the home, by the way) pay for the fix. As advised, I pushed that one back to the realtor who said she'd send 'her guy' over to fix it. 'Her guy', as I've described here much earlier, was also FBN-ing around his day-job w/ a licensed electrician and had to schedule his FBN-ing around his community service & DWI jail time. I really, really would've been more than happy to invest my profits from the sale of the first to re-wire the whole house but was deterred from going that route by the home inspector - a lesson learned.

As a homeowner, I think people ARE resistant to hear that the 'fix' might entail stripping out and replacing the entire electrical infrastructure at significant cost. However, I don't think that the average homeowner really understands the risk issues, namely the likelihood that the risk is present and how large any problem could get very quickly should the system overheat or overload. (Hope I said that right.) If, somehow, there could be a way to relay the details of how important PREVENTION is vs. having to deal with a real crisis and introduce the probability into the discussion, it may actually land on hearing ears.

As a result, I hate Al wiring and am loathe to ever have to face that possibility in another home. It's too much to have to worry over when you put your head on the pillow and hope that you'll be able to avert disaster for yourself and 3 children.

Bren,

I have had a lot of electricians, tell me all you have to do is pigtail, and when i ask them how they do it, they reply "just wirenut a copper wire to the al wire", what they have done is made a bad situation worse, i live in an area where we have a large number of AL wired homes, so i get a chance to see a lot of the problems, that were created with bad fixes, if you ask why they did the fix, they will tell you, "what am i to do tell the homeowner he has to rewire his whole house, it appears that everyone is in denial over this issue, and i can understand why, the homeowner with the largest investment of his life, cannot accept, that their investment may have potential problems, so the easy way out is to deny, that there is a problem.
Most of the fried work we see, is where the homeowner put a dimmer switch on an alum circuit, or where recessed lighting has been added and extended from an Alum circuit.
We recommend rewire, or have the connections cold welded by a certified contractor.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 07-01-2005).]

u2slow
That was just about the time that the new alloy aluminum conductors and CO/ALR devices hit the market. That combination of products has about the same failure rate as a copper system.
Don

Last year, I had bought a home wired in AL. I I changed the service and added a sub panel upstairs, and installed new copper to the important heavy load areas. Kitchen, Laundry, Bathrooms, completly re-wired a Family Den. I didn't gut the AL 100%. Where I did leave it, was areas with very small loads.
I hate the stuff, but where I did leave it, I was like a Doctor, checking every Box, and installed switches and outlets designed for CU/Al. I might add the AFCI breakers to the AL I had to leave, for extra protection. House was built in 1974.