Hi! I am new, but have read the postings for a while. I always enjoy the code section postings...

I am an electrical engineer in San Jose, CA, and a recent graduate. I am finding there is a lot I didn't learn in school, and I am quite sure I have made several contractors frustrated by not knowing what I am talking about.

I would like to set up a program where engineers could shadow electrical contractors, and really understand what engineers are telling you to install.

I am interested in some feedback from contractors as to what might be the advantage of this program from your stand point, how to get contractors interested in this project, what organizations might be interested in supporting this cause, etc. I know of many engineers interested, but I don't know how to let contractors know about it.

Also, if there is a similar program set up in your area, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks!

I think it sounds like a great plan. I have been on all sides of this business and some of the biggest problems seem to be because of the stratification of the various professions. The college professors don't usually have experience in the field and the engineers don't actually have to install the equipment they design. The actual installing electrician doesn't usually doesn't understand the design issues, politics and economics that drove the engineering decisions.
I think everyone should spend some time working in the other areas, just to see what goes on.

kad8830,
Welcome to ECN.
What a good point you bring up and not before it's time either.
I also agree with Greg, in his saying that we could all do with a bit of time in the other persons shoes.
I come from New Zealand and one big problem we have here is that the fact that most Architects and Draughts-people have never spent a moment with those of us that actually install the stuff that they design.
Not a huge issue but, sometimes, a lot of on-site changes could be avoided if there was better consultation, hey not from the Architects, but there is a certain amount that the installing Electrician could do to make life easier for the Architect, which in turn would make for more concise plans.
The ball is pretty much in everyones court.
It's just simple teamwork.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 05-15-2005).]

This is a great idea. There really seems to be a lack of engineering support out there. The engineers I have worked with, in several large institutions I have worked in, usually did a minimal amount of research and planning for projects. They then produced a weak set of plans (if any at all) and then relied on the electrician to engineer the job and do the work. I can not count the number of jobs where I had to do the engineers work as well. Where the plans were useless and did not reflect the conditions on the job. Most meaningful solutions to problems were found by me. I think they were usually afraid to make decisions that they might have to take responsibility for in the future but they were more than happy to let the electrician do it (just as well). And yet when I was involved in meetings with some of these people (and their superiors) they had all the answers . Funny how that works.

I'm sure engineers have problems meeting deadlines etc. but I think they need to co more legwork when planning projects. Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be an attidude that their job is done when they deliver the plans.

As far as your project goes I'm all for it. I just think you will have an uphill battle convincing most engineers that electricians know anything more than how to turn a screwdriver. Good luck.

Ah! The Institute of Meetings Engineers!
aka: I! ME!

Rule 1. Make sure your hair looks good.
Rule 2. Steal all your underlings ideas and knowledge and pass it off as all your own original work.
Rule 3. Get to meetings early and scoff all the coffee and donuts before the underlings arrive.
Rule 4. See rule 1.

been there!
Alan.

I too feel that it would be in the best interest for engineers to get out in the field to see how it installed. I use to work with an architect and to him, moving a wall over 2 feet meant nothing more than erasing a line on a plan. He never knew that in that wall was 15 cables, CATV wires, Telco lines, plumbing etc. Plus to relocate that wall it would be about 3 days worth of work and thousands of dollars. He also would try and cram every piece of mechanical equipment into the tiniest of rooms. Thank goodness for the workspace req. of the NEC.

I'm only 35, so I have know idea how true this is. I used to work for some older electricians who descibed the old days.

From what I understand, is prior to WW 2 all kinds of trades were set up differently. And everything from furnature makers all the way up the line suffered skill loss. Many of the constuction engineering and archetectual trades actually had to work on site in the field as an apprentice to a senior engineer or arch'. And most often on larger projects were on site nearly full time.

(Gaudi usually built his office on site first.)

After WW 2, there were a huge amount of people coming back, who dove into schools, and fast tracked directly into professions, without that apprenticeship. And later after, Korea and Veitnam, simular things happened, and new professionals came out of schools were then refered to as Interns. Rarely left the office, and rarely made it to a work site.

(The formulas for concrete and mortar were lost for hundreds of years after the fall of the Roman Empire.)

So today, most plans have a rubber stamp from an Engineer, who may never have vistied the site, and the plans arrive via PDF, or CAD to a Copy shop that delivers to our office. Often my only interaction with an engineer is faxing back a list of existing equipment. What I get back is a boiler plate that says in short,"follow applicable codes and standards", and some title 24 calc's, the rest is left up to me.

A guy who used to work under me, is now in an engineering program. I think he's going to go far, and fast, just due to the fact that he knows how things actually go together.

IMO, that should be required by the entity that issues your stamp. I had to get signatures from people testifying that I had worked in the field for the required hours before I got my license. Maybe a minimum amount of hours should be required.



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 05-15-2005).]

In the service, this is called "cross training." It is one thing that is essential, even if it has little place in the way todays' workforce is trained.

How about this take on the issue....Enegineers' plans to be approved by the electrical comtractor, or master electrician? Engineers are, by training, math-happy, and can usually be trusted to do the calculations right- but haven't a clue otherwise. Engineering schools spend absolutely no time training their students in the "real world" of actually making thngs.

Show me any great "Engineering" achievement, any I'll show you something that was buitl, problems that were overcome, by skilled tradesmen- often in spite of the engineers!

Though my rant isn't aimed at engineers alone....electricians also need to know something about the plumbing, HVAC, telecom, alarm, computer, and other trades. I would especially like to see sparkys spend some time with a PoCo line crew.

In other words, I oppose the current straight-line approach to job training, one that has resulted in "Inspection Technology" programs that churn out 'inspectors' who have no job site experience whatever!
I also oppose the effort of engineers' groups to expand their authority...why, there is even a proposal for the NEC that gives the "Professional Engineer" the status of being the only expert in Article 500 (haz loc) installs- when even the freshest Journeyman is sure to have more training in haz loc than almost every PE.

Edison worked with his hands, in a shop!

Quote:
"I would like to set up a program where engineers could shadow electrical contractors"

This program already exists, it's called apprentice electrician, and as a graduate engineer, you would only need 3 years not the full 4 years.
For any engineer that desires to work in the field, there is no short cut, EIT programs already exist with many large, and medium size construction companies, and manufacturing firms.

E57 post shows, how the dumbing down of engineer training started, I belive the engineering schools, are starting to address this problem, by expanding EIT requirements and, having students define their area of interest, to allow early entry to field programs related to their career path.

No new program needed, just pull up those shirtsleeves, we have helped many engineers over the years, and in turn we have learned how engineers operate, and how to work together.

Les

How about a shortened pathway for electricians to become electrical engineers? Putting the tools away and attending university fulltime for 4 or more years isn't an option for most of us working people. Makes just as much sense as putting the engineer through a reduced-length apprenticeship IMO.

I don't think 'journeyman' should be the end of the road.

Sorry this thread got my goat.... Started looking up searches on related... Found this string of gems on another forum.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=99415&page=3 (See thread for context.)



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 05-15-2005).]

"The trade skills are not necessarily a subset of the engineering skills."

For engineering positions in many industries, such as petro chemical, mining, and large electrical contracting firms, they are a required subset of skills, and they are not a rare breed at all, over the years most of these engineers, have moved into upper management positions.

Many electricians, go back to school and finish a degree program in engineering.

With our declining manufacturing base, more companies are looking for the employees that are dual trained, this trend is nothing new, the services have been doing this for years, with good results.


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 05-15-2005).]

Some of my experience of being an electrical engineer "systems archetect" for video intergrated circuits can be used for discussion here. In my world, I specify the overall structure of the functions of this intergrated circuit, but I leave it to specialists to design and build the actual silicon circuits of that intergrated circuit. This would be somewhat similar to my designing say a house. "I want the kitchen here, the dining room next to it here, bedrooms at the other end here, etc". And some details like, "I'd like 4 counter circuits in the kitchen, and this bedroom here will be my ham radio room and I'll need a 240V 15A outlet to power my transmitter in there." But leave it to the EC to take care of the detailed design of the electrical system per NEC but saying "use wire one step thicker than what the NEC says". I'd avoid "but that's not code, can't do it" type problems. I'd say what I want to be able to do and let the EC make it happen.

THus the lack of detail you see from engineers is partly the deligation of that task to the EC and partly to avoid arguements over code complience problems. "The kitchen is to have 2 fridges and a freezer, just make the appropriate electrical happen to code". Code things like the max number of breakers in a panel engineers are not likely to know about, thus they leave it to the electricians to figure out how to orginize the system to be code.

The PE is responsable for the design, the EC installs as designed, and in most cases, there are few problems, any good engineering firm has qualified engineers, that are well aware of code requirements, most of the problems come from poor communications with those working in the field.

wa2ise,
If "delegation" is part of the reason for lack of detail from engineers, maybe you can elaborate on what some of the other reasons would be. It does not explain the multitude of omissions and outright mistakes that I have come across on plans. Quote: "The kitchen is to have two fridges and a freezer, just make the appropriate electrical happen to code". So it is now the electricians responsibility to figure out specs., locations etc. of this equipment? From my perspective delegation often looks alot like passing the buck. By the way I think electrical engineers should know about little details like the max. number of breakers allowed in a panel.

Interesting point by E57 on the loss of trade skills- many of which are caused by modern technology- parts previously made on site by an artisan are now churned out in plastic by a factory. BTW: The Coliseum in Rome was made of CONCRETE - that's why it's still there; the locals couldn't rob the stone out to build houses.

Yes, e57 feels like a lot of us, back to the pure craft, and he brings out a good point on how the engineers have been churned out.