is there any issues with running the 4 wire service entrance cable diagonally along the joists from the meter to the panel 50 feet away. trying to save some money,

There is no reason electrically but it will look like a shoddy job and if it is being inspected the inspector will probably not pass it.

We have to be sure what we are talking about.


Does this cable contain unprotected service entrance conductors or is it simply a feeder?

Assuming this cable has overcurrent protection I see no problem with it.

IMO an inspector can not fail a job strictly because they do not like a cable running diagonally.

Bob

Hi,
This is allowed by the NEC for certain size condcutors.

did you say DIAGONALLY...try to do it a a right angle...diagonal will look like CRAP!

Are you talking floor joist in a crawl space or are you up in the attic?

-regards

greg

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-18-2005).]

I have seen inspectors fail wiring that they considered not up to standards of a workmanlike installation.

ok guys, thanks for the instite. i'll change my routing

That's ridiculous.

Diagonally or rectangularly installed, the description implies the service disconnect is in the panelboard and the diagonal run of 50 feet is inside the building. It sounds like the service conductors are accessible inside an attic. This leads me to think the requirements of NEC 230.7(1) are not met since the service disconnect is not located at the point nearest the point of entrance.

Does the AHJ have an allowable length from the point-of-entrance to the location of the DS?

As Iwire brought up, I think this is a feeder unless we're talking a three phase service.

In any case it should be square and plumb, not per code, but for putting your name to it.

Roger

Hi,

You said: "4 wire service entrance cable"..

Is this a residence or what? If it is a residential application...you do not need a 4 wire cable...you need an SE cable which has two insulated conductors in it and a bare neutral..

a ser cable has four..two hots, neut, and grnd..this is for feeding sub panels..

The cable should run at right angles if possible. It is perfectly within the NEC to run any conductor larger than a #4 across the FACE of a joist or rafter or whatever. I cant think of the article so dont get mad becasue I didnt quote the nec verbatum...its in there! I think it is 300.??..

Running it diagonally in a concealed location doesnt mean SQUAT! If you want to run it diagonally go ahead. If it is in a unfinished basement I would at least try and run it at right angles.

There is also NO distance or location given for where the ocpd has to be located as long as it is within reason. 10 feet for certain types of cables and or condcutors...especially if they are not fire retardant...like USE or whatever..

There is also NO code requirement to NOT have service conductors NOT accessible in an attic or anywhere else for that matter..i dont think it is that safe because there is no fuse between you and the poco xfmr..

If I take a weatherhead and stub it out of the ATTIC I can run a SE cable down to the OCPD with or WITHOUT a conduit.

I can do the same thing if I run it DOWN the wall and INTO the attic or basement...Myself I wish this would get cleared up in the NEC becasue it always starts an argument!

Since I am good at that I figured I would go ahead and get it started!

I have seen inspectors REFUSE to allow the disconnect ANYWHERE except on one side of the wall or the other..I have seen them allow you to run it through the house, down into the basement on a two story house!

I am not shouting at anyone...just putting emphasis on the key words..so dont get upset everybody..I am cool as a cucumber!

This is an old debate and it has gone around and around for years..even on this rag..

Heres what i would do..try to use a csed when possible..you will be providing your client with a lot more bang for their buck rather than a meterbase on the outside of the house and it makes everything really simple..the combo meterbase and disco is a good one too...if located next to the AC unit you can save a buck or two by feeding it from that panel..i prefer the generator feature myself and I sell them all the time.

I love se and ser cable myself..

ok bring it on guys..i know you are salivating and cant wait to try and prove me wrong..DING DING!

-regards

greg


[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-18-2005).]

Hi,
How do you all make those Quotes like that? do you do it manually or what? I havent noticed a tool for that..

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BLAH BLAH BLAH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mine dont turn out with the horizontal line..


-regards

greg



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-18-2005).]

Greg, to quote some one do this, first highlite the sentence or paragraph you need then go to edit and copy, you can also right click. Then type including brackets [QOTE] and add the "U" at this point paste your field then type [/ qote] put the "U" in and this will post the field as a quote


Example
Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 03-18-2005).]

Just for the record, I would not run diagonally but it certainly is legal.

You may have to install it on a runner(2x6 on flat) if its in an area where it could be stepped on or otherwise damaged, but that might depend on what your inspector finds acceptable.

I would have to agree with Rich. The code calls for the first disconnect to be either outside the building or the inside nearest point of entrance of the service conductors. I don't see how 50 ft would possibly be the nearest point of entrance.

Hi Greg


If he is going inside 50' the panel he is heading to must be a 'sub panel'. There would have to be a service disconnect previous to that 50' run.

Can you think of a code complaint way to feed a panel 50' inside a residence with 2 wire SE?

Bob

The original question has gotten all mixed up. (That never happens ) From what small amount of info there is I gather this most likely is the feeder from a main disco running to the panel accross the basement along the underside of the joists and not through them. Hence the "4 wire service entrance cable". If this is the actual case then it is perfectly legal. Some would say it is a hack job but that is matter of opinion. I have a similar run in my own house that was there when I moved in, however the nuts drilled 2" holes in every joist. I'll send in a picture to the photo area.

... Dude,..SER is what,..about a buck a foot?? do it the right way,and go at right angles to your destination... you can always use the piece you already have down the road on another job,..it'll never go to waste..C'mon,make us proud!!
Russ


[This message has been edited by Attic Rat (edited 03-19-2005).]

The answer is ..............NO

It has been a long time since I have seen ser cable at a buck a foot, but then again I live out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. I prefer to use ser cable instead of se when installing residential single phase service drops from the point of attachment to the meter socket. I will cut off the bare ground conductor at each end right at the spot where the sheath is opened up to. That way I am using two hots, and an "insulated" neutral conductor. I wonder if others will see fault with this method?.

don patterson

First welcome to the forum.



The answer to is no to what?

Do you have a code section in mind or is that just how you feel it should be done?

Bob

To iwire, sid asked a simple ? I didnt assume anything, to me it was a black and white ? thats all.It could be a 3ph service to a house, i dont know, he gave us no more info.

Mustang
"There is also NO code requirement to NOT have service conductors NOT accessible in an attic or anywhere else for that matter..i dont think it is that safe because there is no fuse between you and the poco xfmr"

Have you read:

VI. Service Equipment — Disconnecting Means
230.70 General. Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the serviceentrance
conductors.
(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (2), and (3).
(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.

There are some jurisdictions that have (in writing) some allowance inside the building.
In general the service entrance conductors are not permitted inside of a building.

Running this in walls as you have stated is not permitted.

Macmikeman:stated,
"I will cut off the bare ground conductor at each end right at the spot where the sheath is opened up to. That way I am using two hots, and an "insulated" neutral conductor. I wonder if others will see fault with this method?."
I believe section 250.4 might apply. Noncurrent carrying conductive materials enclosing...etc.
Unless the outer conductors are bonded to something a break in the inner wires could energize them (the outer) and create a shock hazard. If it were a metal conduit enclosing conductors you would never leave it unbonded.
Alan -Inspector

Allen stated in last post:Unless the outer conductors are bonded to something a break in the inner wires could energize them (the outer) and create a shock hazard. If it were a metal conduit enclosing conductors you would never leave it unbonded.
Reply: Alan when installing service drops in a metal mast we do not use ser cable, we run individual conductors thru the mast which is bonded to the meter can. I was refering to ser cable which is strapped to the building surface up to a cable weatherhead. Ser cable does not have "outer conductors" flat se cable does. Ser cable has an uninsulated ground run along with the three insulated conductors. In a service drop if the bare wire is cut short at each end there is actually very little chance of shock hazard since it is part of a service drop since this conductor is contained entirely within the cable sheath. If the cable becomes subject to physical damage well then we are talking about a totaly different thing- a service drop with a broken wire inside a cable is a disaster no mater whether ser cable or se cable.

P.S. Sorry about the thread hijack. Sid123456 I think you should spend the extra money and run the cable at right angles keep it ship shape. If your work is not consistantly first class, it will reflect back on your image to the public sooner or later.

Is this going to be exposed to view? Or is it covered up? If it can't be seen by the "public", then run it diagonally!! Geez, I've seen enough bad stuff run at right angles; the installation can be neat and to code, and you can save the money for when you need the labor to make it look perty!

Yes you can do the job, like a handyman, or you can do first class craft work, everyone is missing the reason, why we try to run cables at right angles, to avoid running over, or under existing pipes, ducts, or cables that are run at right angles, just last month we repaired a cable that was run under a water pipe at an angle, when the plumber was installing the new dishwasher he burned thru the cable.
In my opinion this is not an issue, right angles in exposed areas 1st class Electrician, diagional run Handyman work.