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Posted By: SnakeBite Bad Grounding - 03/07/05 09:55 PM
Here is something I've never seen before. New vinyl siding was put on a standard residential home 120v/60a. Over the course of 7 months the new siding started to warp or melt. This is happening only on the side where the power comes in. This seems to be isolated only to the vinyl siding only, not other materials like the window caulking or vinyl window trim. This warping or melting seems to be happening in a diagonal direction. The AHJ says it is caused by a bad ground. The house did have a bad ground to the water pipe. In my experience I cannot figure out how a bad ground could have caused this and will have to disagree with the AHJ. What do you think?
Posted By: CRW Re: Bad Grounding - 03/08/05 02:36 AM
I don't get some of the details here. What is the 120v/60a? The service? What kind of service is there to the house? Is the new siding installed over existing metallic siding? Or just over wood? Is there any grounding electrode besides the water pipe? How did the AHJ get involved, was it assumed to be an electrical problem? Did he explain anything else as to how a bad ground could cause this? Never heard of anything like that....
Posted By: tsolanto Re: Bad Grounding - 03/12/05 12:36 AM
Run---People may very well be in danger here. Sounds like and ground fault to the underlaid aluminum siding I saw it happen once, well sort of, I saw the service get clipped by a sawzall and it energized the aluminum and sizzeled (need spell check) down the siding, a quick thinking or dumb carpenter pulled the service away and saved the day and almost killed himself.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Bad Grounding - 03/12/05 01:02 AM
Snakebite,
you got to come back and let us know about this one.

I gotta believe the AHJ is just joking about the bad ground, or smoking something really good.

How is a bad ground causing the siding to melt?

I melted part of mine once, then I moved the BBQ grill.

Let us know what you find.......

Dnk...
Posted By: Roger Re: Bad Grounding - 03/12/05 09:50 PM
This post was moved into this thread for SnakeBite from another thread.


SnakeBite
New Member posted 03-12-2005 04:31 PM
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I'm new to this forum and do not know how to reply to you guys when I get a response. So I'll try to explain my problem again. New vinyl siding was put up in July/04. The siding was put on over first layer original wood, second layer asphalt siding put on in the 60s. Then the siding guys came and put up isulation, one side of it white the other side foil. Foil side out. Then the vinyl siding. About 3 months after the vinyl siding was put up I noticed a ripple effect happening to the vinyl siding. It was not bad at this time. The contractor was called and said he would take care of everything in the spring. Since then the warping or melting effect has gotten worse. The warping seems to be going in a diagonal direction and is only happening on the side of the house where the power comes in from the pole, no place else. There are vinyl shutters that are also warping. The contractor was called again three weeks ago, he came down and said he was not responsible for the damage, claiming it was an electrical problem. He called the electrical inspector who said it was a bad ground, the inspector never went inside the house. But he did do a voltage test with a hand held meter and found no problems. There was a bad ground to the water pipe. It was rusty and corroded. A new clamp was put on. The power company was called and checked every thing on their side, no problems there, they also did a load test on the house (?) and also a voltage test with a hand held meter and said everything was fine. I have had two electricians come, one master and one journeyman from two different places. They tell me they have never seen anything like it and find it hard how a nonconductive material could melt or warp from electricity like that. Nothing else but the vinyl siding is effected like the window caulking or vinyl window trim. The insulation shows no sign of melting or burning, the wood and original asphalt siding are fine also. Like I said the shutters are also warping, but underneath them it is not. The warping effect is happening in a diagonal direction. The warping goes up to the shutter, the siding is warped. The shutter is warped, but not under the shutter. The warping does not effect under the shutter, then the warping continues up the house . There have been no elecrical problens to the in side of the house. This is the best I can explain things. I thank all who have responded and thank in advance anyone else.
Posted By: capt al Re: Bad Grounding - 03/12/05 10:30 PM
Snakebite, Is this happening on the South side of the house?
Al
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Bad Grounding - 03/12/05 10:39 PM
This is a strange one.... Did you try waving a hotstick (the little pocket EMF sensor that looks like a fat pen)around the areas where the siding was melting to see if there was any type of voltage present? Possibly a nicked or pinched wire under the siding that might be heating up the foil under the siding?
Posted By: nesparky Re: Bad Grounding - 03/12/05 11:21 PM
I would suggest that you have the electricians do a stray voltage check on the siding. They may or may not be able to read a voltage on the siding.
The cause may be a nicked wire under the siding as was sugessted above or a nail or scrwe that hit a circuit when it was installed. If the voltage check is negative then I would be talking to the sider about replacing the siding and giving him the electrical bill(s).
There can be other causes but IMHO the most lickly is bad siding.
Posted By: hbiss Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 12:15 AM
Can't be electrical. If the siding under the shutter is not affected but the shutter is that is a clear indication that this is some kind of external heating. Even the diagonal pattern suggests it as does the fact that there is no evidence of heating under the siding. I don't even believe that this is because of improperly applied siding which will buckle because of being nailed too tight. It's obvious when you see it.

Need some more info here- what part of the country is this located and what have the temperatures been like. Is this the South side and is it unobstructed to sunlight? What is surrounding this side of the house?

I am leaning towards this being caused by reflected sunlight possibly from some concave or other surface that would concentrate it and focus it on the siding. The diagional pattern suggests the tracking of the sun in the sky over a period of time.

-Hal
Posted By: Roger Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 01:21 AM
Once again. [Linked Image]

SnakeBite
New Member posted 03-12-2005 06:26 PM
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Yes, a voltage test was done, with a hand held tester. It looked like a large pen. This was done by the electrical inspector and the electrical company, no voltage was found. The siding was put on in July and I first noticed the melting or warping in October. It was very slight. Here in the northeast it is considerably cooler in October. The siding that is effected is not in the direct sunlight, the sun hits that side of the house around 3pm, and what I did notice is that the warping or melting seems to be in the way the sun hits that side of the house. The sun hits the house in a diagonal direction, the tracks of the sun seen to be in the same direction, I think I had a hard time noticing the warping at first because at first it looked like the shadow of the sun, the way the sun hits the house. I had an insurance adjuster and a siding guy, electric company, and two electricians tell me they have never seen anything like this but do not believe this is electrical. The siding guy said it could be a manufacturer's defect called oil canning (?). The bottom line though is if the AJH says it's electrical, and the contractor who put the siding up says it's electrical, I have to prove to him and the contractor that it is not elecrical. I hope this info will help out some more. Thank you.
Posted By: Roger Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 01:23 AM
Electric Eagle
Member posted 03-12-2005 07:07 PM
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I think you should claim that it is defective siding and have the manufacturer do an inspection and a claim. They may rside the house at no cost to you. Is the side of the house affected the south or west side? If so, the sun and the foil may be causing this, not the electricity. I wouldn't even mention the electricity theory to the siding maker.
Posted By: e57 Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 01:55 AM
Bad ground? Well, stranger things have happened. If there were evidence for it, like say voltage, I might think it possible. As I have "heard" of something simular happening to AL siding once. (Removed paint from siding in a wierd pattern from the service to the water pipe, one of those things for Myth-busters.) And on this forum once, there was that neon transformer that had HV arcs jumping along the metalic threads of some wallpaper. (Something not possible with a 120/240 service)

I'm gonna side with Hal on the installer nailing too tight. (Allowing for thermal expansion and movement.) Who knows.... It might correct itself by say, next July.
Posted By: SnakeBite Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 01:21 PM
Thanks for all the input, all the evidance is pointing to a manufactures defect. The contractor does not want to pay to replace the siding and an easy way out is to blame it on an electrical problem, so he is not responsibal. I am in Western Mass and the sun hits that side of the house around 2pm to sun set. This would be the southeast side of the house. The sun does not hit that side of the house directly it hits it at an angle for half of the day. I will post what the final out come of this problem is, I think I am in for a fight with the contractor and might have to take things to court. Thanks to all that resonded.
Posted By: HLCbuild Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 02:01 PM
SnakeBite,
Are there any other houses nearby that would possibly have a mirror or some shiny object inside their house that would be reflecting the suns rays back thru a window that would cause a magnifying glass effect? Or perhaps some water in a pool or bird bath reflecting the sun? Because the shutter is also warping, but not the siding behind the shutter, it would appear to me that an external heat like magnified sun rays are causing the vinyl to warp.
Posted By: Redsy Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 02:55 PM
How about this:

A nail hits a hot wire at some point.
The head of the nail is in contact with the foil on the insulation board causing it to become energized.
The foil, (or even another nail) is in contact with ground somewhere diagonally from the first nail, causing a high resistance fault path which generates enough heat to warp the siding, but not enough current to trip the CB.
Try removing the siding at either end of where the warping begins check for voltage, or try unplugging all the loads and seeing if a current is still flowing somewhere.
Posted By: SnakeBite Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 04:30 PM
There is nothing I can see that could cause a reflectig effect or any thing near by that could amplify the sun. The warping or meltig effect is effecting the shutter but not under it. The siding guys used standard roffing nails 1 inch, the sutters are held in with 3 inch self tapping screws. I do not think the nails could go throw the wood and the old asfalt siding, to hit a line. The screws that hold the sutters up could, but upon examing the house I could not find any lines behind the shutters. What if the shutter screws did hit a line(all lines are in armor cabel)wouldnt the vinal siding under the shutter melt to. This house has the old screw in fuses nob and tude wouldnt they blow? They are very sensitive. All opinions will help. Thank you.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 05:14 PM
Guys,
Is this Vinyl metallic at all?
As in a vinyl coating on steel?.
If it is non-metallic, I would tell the AHJ to go jump, because it sounds to me like the length of the sheets have been mis-judged.
The variations are because of temperature, not because of some idiot idea about "Ground Currents".
Posted By: SnakeBite Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 07:12 PM
This is 100% vinal siding no metal, there is a foil type insulation, like tin foil but much thiner. The insulation is white on one side foil the other, foil side out.
Posted By: pdh Re: Bad Grounding - 03/13/05 08:23 PM
Foil is metal. If it's conducting electricity, it's resisting some of it and converting it to heat. Being as this is heat insulating material, it wouldn't take much to produce a heat rise (one of the reasons not to stuff insulation around K&T).

I'd think if a nail clipped a wire and energized the foil, this would at least be detectable.

The thing I haven't seen mentioned is inductive heating. If any wiring in the affected wall is not returning current along the same path, it can induce current in the foil lining. Then depending on different parts of the foil are attached to each other, there might be a circular path in this foil.

If there is a ground fault going to a point of ground somewhere other than the EGC, that would form a wide path that can cause inductive heating. If the ground bond is bad, it could be sufficient impedance to prevent overcurrent protection.

If I were checking this, I'd clamp around the ground wire and each of the circuit cables to check for a low current ground fault loop (possibly coming back in through that bad ground bond to return to the source). If that shows nothing, I'd shut off the circuits to all the wiring in the affected walls and see if the melting progresses further.

Anyone have IR scope to look at this with, especially at night?
Posted By: pdh Re: Bad Grounding - 03/14/05 12:03 AM
Just had another thought regarding this thread. Any chance this house has active K&T in it?
Posted By: HLCbuild Re: Bad Grounding - 03/14/05 01:48 AM
I agree with Trumpy. If the siding below the shutter is not melted and the shutter is melted, I think we can rule out heat from inside the building. So we rule out a short to ground. Do you have access to an infrared thermometer....the kind you point at the wall? You could take some readings of the different parts of the wall at different times of the day. I still think it is being caused by an external source.
Posted By: FWW56 Re: Bad Grounding - 03/14/05 04:27 AM
Having handled a few general contracting jobs over the years, my resume goes back before vinyl siding but that would be another story. I would suggest that you cantact the siding manufacturer and get them involved.

I would bet the problem lies with a faulty installation of the siding / insulation board. The foil backed insulation should not be installed with the foil facing out when applied under vinyl siding. The foil should only be installed facing out under aluminum siding (or steel if it is still even available).

What the problem is, is the foil is reflecting the heat to the back of the siding. Vinyl siding will expand much more than aluminum siding. Even though you are in the clutches of winter, the direct rays of the afternoon sun will heat the wall enough to cause this.

Another thing, 1" nails may not be long enough given the situation you've stated if the asphalt siding is "insul-brick" or some like material, these materials are typically 3/4" to 1" thick. Due to the expansion of vinyl siding, you need to leave the nails loose, 1/4" or so and it is also important to nail in the center of the slots to prevent the siding from binding and causing the problem you're experiencing. Nails in the 2" range are more appropriate to insure adequate bite into the original wood siding.

I hope this helps.
FRANK
Posted By: SnakeBite Re: Bad Grounding - 03/15/05 12:40 AM
I did not know the foil side should face in towards the house. The contractor did not tell me about this. The guy who sold the siding to the contractor called me today and said the company that made the siding is sending me somthing to fill out, I will let them know that the insulation was put up wrong. I was guessing on the size of the nails after looking at one I would have to say they are 2 inch, but do not belive the nails could hit a line. I do not have accsess to any hi tech equipment inferred or heat sensing but that would be a good idear. I will let every one know what the final out come will fianally be, Thanks for all the opinions and info.
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