ECN Forum
Posted By: Redsy M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 02:02 AM
I am going to recommend replacing the old 400 w. M-V fixtures in a lumber storage warehouse with either 250 watt Metal-Halide or 250 watt High Pressure Sodium.
According to the owner, color rendition is not TOO important, but maintenance costs are. I'm considering the HPS due to the lamp life being 24,000 hrs. versus 10,000 hrs. for the M-H. I'm just not too sure how bad the poor color rendition will look.
I have used M-V and M-H in the past.
Has anyone used HPS for warehouse lighting and been satisfied with the results?
Posted By: electure Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 03:02 AM
Hi, Rojosy!

I've used HPS lighting for an large indoor warehouse at a lumber yard. The color doesn't seem to be a problem to them. The products kept in the area are dimensional lumber, plywood, metal brackets, and the other "rough stuff"
All the molding, hardwoods, veneers... that color or finish is an issue are in a separate area, and are lit either by MH or 50K Fluorescents.
It all works very well.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 04:03 AM
I am going to disagree with Electure. I have worked in a number of warehouses that had HPS lighting, and it simply is horrible- most unpleasant for the eyes. This is especially true with the various poorly printed forms using colored paper that you commonly deal with....orders, packing slips, etc.

I would also like to introduce another option. I recently, as a test, replaced a 400w MH fixture, mounted 22+ ft. up, with a fixture that used 5-54w T-5 flourescent lamps. More light, better distributed, without the warm-up period needed by HID- and for half the electric, minus the heat!
Since there is essentially no warm-up period, such lights could also be locally controlled- say, by a motion sensor- to light up an area only as needed.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 05:02 AM
I'm going to side with renosteinke here.
T-5 Fluorescents are making a good case for their replacing traditional Low and High-bay lights.
They are virtually shadowless, being run on HF Ballasts also means that they don't cause the same Stroboscopic effect as their predecessors, around rotating machinery.
The new T5 tubes also have a life of around 16,000 hrs.
More importantly, if there is a power sag and the lights go out, you don't have to wait for the bulbs to cool down before they will re-strike.
I'm not really a great fan of HPS lighting, we use it over here for Streetlighting and we are in the process of upgrading to M-H lighting.
The change in lighting at night, is beyond belief!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Steve Miller Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 11:29 AM
I have to agree with renosteinke. I work for a county school board and we have plenty of each. For an inside facility where you have to read labels and just generally exist I'd take MH every time. For an outdoor facility, where the glare and color disturb the neighbors I'd take the HPS. In a nutshell ... parking lots work better in HPS but gymnasiums work better with MH.
We have the new no delay MH bulbs now also. They come to life as quickly as an incandescent when turned off & on; NO delay.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 11:51 AM
Count me in on the T-5 fixtures.

Better light, and an easy sell for the cost savings alone.
Posted By: Redsy Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 01:10 PM
Thanks for the quick help guys!

electure-- good to "see you" :}. My situation is similsr to what you describe.

Due to retro-fit costs, and the height of the ceiling (about 40'), fluorescsnt is not an option.
I have to go with HID high-bays.

I checked with the owner and color is not an issue, but once they are up, I'm afraid he might not like them.

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 03-04-2005).]
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 08:46 PM
A little late in putting in my 2 cents, but...
When I have a situation like yours, I 'hang' a sample fixture! Let it burn for a week, get opinions, a nod or nay from the guy that is signing the check, and it becomes the client's decision.

That said, the T5 fluorescents are making a big in-road into the warehouse market, along with multi-level and motion sensors.

Personally, HPS is not my prime choice, MH is, and check your info on the rated life, MH 400 watt is 20K hrs also.

Lastly, you know there is a retro bulb, MVR400/U/ED28/R, THAT YOU CAN JUST SCREW-IN? 20k HRS; $82 in WWG cat #392. (4WW46)

Posted By: jbfan Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 09:44 PM
I just visited the cooper warehouse in Peachtree City, and they had several types of lighting, with the newest being the t-5, 6 or 8 blub fixture, replacing a MH on a one for one basis. The light was great. In our warehouse we have t-8 and they are from 30-35 ' in the air. They provide better lighting than the MH we had. We learned the hard way, if you want to use sensors, the the rapid start ballast are not the way to go. We are getting about half life from the tubes. Our next retrofit, whitch begins next week, we are useing t-8 with a programed ballast, with is suposed to give us another 50% of tube life.
Posted By: capt al Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/04/05 09:50 PM
Redsy, I do service work for a warehouse that converted their lighting to the T-5 fixtures. The fixtures are 35' above finished floor. I am amazed at how bright the warehouse is now. They removed HPS High Bay fixtures. Try one out like Hotline suggested.
Posted By: Sandro Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/05/05 12:17 AM
anybody have a link for the T-5 fixtures....these sound interesting.

I normally go with MH for my high bay installs, but I'm always open to new ideas and options.
Posted By: Dave55 Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/05/05 01:57 AM
a very good supplier. Anyone else notice that fluorescent ballasts go bad if the bulbs aren't replaced in a timely manner?

Posted By: electure Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/05/05 01:09 PM
OK, I'll come out of the Stone Age [Linked Image] Renosteinke's hit it right on the head.

I've used the T-5 HO fixtures a few times and they are absolutely great. Some benefits:
No waiting for it to start, and no restrike lamp needed.
They can be fitted with emergency battery packs for egress/EM use.
Very lightweight
Use much less power than an HID.
Most importantly...Ruud sent me a coffee cake at Christmas [Linked Image]
Posted By: Redsy Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/05/05 03:49 PM
Thanks again guys.
Some issues--

The existing fixtures are 480-volt and connected to a 3-pole CB.
There is no neutral available, so they need to stay @480. There is a short somewhere so the whole bank of lights (20 fixtures) is out.
I'm looking to install fused fixtures, so I need to change the whole fixture.
I dont think fluorescent fixtures are available at 480-volt? And to keep retro-fit costs down, I'm looking to use the existing stem (nipple) mounting.
Posted By: mhulbert Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/05/05 06:37 PM
These are not the same looking beasts as your typical flourescent fixture, they are meant to replace exactly what you are dealing with.

Looking at the RUUD catalog right now, they have 480V T5HO (4 lamp or 6 lamp)lights, from the looks of it, they mount right on a conduit nipple, you can get them with cord and plug, hard wire, or the MC cable modular system. I'm not sure about fuses, but RUUD is pretty good about options, so I'm sure if you called, they could hook you up. If you haven't dealt with them before, youa re in for a treat.

Above what the others have mentioned, RUUD says you'll save $70 per fixture in annual energy costs if you use them 4000 hrs/yr. Might be a good figure to convince the client to switch. If you are curious what these look like, go to the newer Home Depot's or Loews, they are using them a lot.

Posted By: HotLine1 Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/05/05 10:59 PM
A 'second' on the quality of customer service that RUUD lighting provides to us contractors. I've been dealing with them since 1985 and can count the problems on one finger. They seem to have cured the 'damages' situation (NOT there fault) by switching from "Brown" to "Green".

Redsy: They have a sample program set up for contractors also.

Posted By: Redsy Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/05/05 11:33 PM
Thanks for all the input guys.
I really appreciate the responses!

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Dave55 Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/06/05 01:11 AM
Ruud will deliver to me by truck, which I do now because of damage from UPS. To their credit, Ruud replaced the damaged supplies immediately and without charge. This commercial message has been brought to you by Dave.

Posted By: Trumpy Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/06/05 05:03 AM
There is more than one manufacturer of the T-5 technology.
Philips are also making this sort of gear and have guite a bit of it on thier website, of which the URL actually escapes me at the moment.
Posted By: hurk27 Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/06/05 10:01 AM
We use Ruud in all our lighting for large warehouse installs and for parking lots. We switched to Mh Pulse Start about 5 years ago when they became available and the warranty on them is 5 years on the bulbs and the light output is more than hps for the same given wattage, But now with these T5 making inroads we have used them in a couple of installs and they are great. Ruud has always backed there products and damage for us and the fact we can deal with them directly we don't have the cost and wait of going through a distributor. Give them a try and you'll never go back.
Posted By: Redsy Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/06/05 04:35 PM
I guess I should back-up a bit.
The original problem is a faulted fixture on a 3-pole CB, which is causing the whole area to lose light.
I'd like to do this as simply and inexpensively as possible.
I'm wondering about retro-fitting fuse holders at each ballast.

BTW, the set-up consists of a 10 rectangular remote ballast enclosures, each of which houses ballasts for 2 fixtures. I've heard that there used to be dual-lamp M-V ballasts, but I don't know if these housings contain those, or 2 separate remote ballasts.
The problem is that I can't access the existing equipment without a lift and I don't want to rent a lift until I'm ready to solve the problem.
Energy savings aside, the only reason I thought about fixture replacement is that I don't know if I can retro-fit fuse holders. I'm having a hard time finding aftermarket fuse holders. But, if I can install them, that's what I'll do.
Posted By: capt al Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/06/05 06:31 PM
Redsy, check out Look at panel mounted HPF fuse holders, or their HEG & HEY series of in line fuse holders. Both types take CC rated fuses 1/4 - 30 amp 600 volt ratings. You might be able to fit these fuse holders in the remote ballast enclosure.
Posted By: Redsy Re: M-H vs HPS - 03/06/05 11:58 PM
Aye, aye captain!

Sorry, my kids have me watching "SpongeBob".

Anyway Al, Thanks for the link. I was on their website and couldn't find inline fuseholders.
A great help!
© ECN Electrical Forums