ECN Forum
Posted By: zapped208 I said no, but....... - 01/14/05 01:01 AM
Finished rough wiring a ~8000 sq. ft. house the other day, and the owner wanted a recep installed in a niche area at the master bath jacuzzi. It is in the tub zone for his TV set. The VDV guys already did their thing and so did I. I hate people with money and no brains. The owner did not see any problem with it!
Anybody else have this type of bizarre customers?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/14/05 01:35 AM
Should have introduced your customer to a HO at a McMansion I did a rough insp at a few weeks back.

This HO found a whirlpool tub (Jacuzzi) with a plasma TV (14-15") built into the tub.

Said "About 11K" when I hinted around to the plumber.

BTW, what are you going to do to pass inspections?????

John
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/14/05 10:55 AM
John,- Already passed rough wire, foreigners are sheetrocking.
Not much we can do,HO has been warned.
We are going to type a letter from our lawyer.
BTW John, did you pass that rough wire?
Posted By: iwire Re: I said no, but....... - 01/14/05 11:29 AM
Zapped I would not continue installing this outlet!

Kill the feed to it and have it 'mudded' over like it was never there.

Quote
406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.

406.8(C) Bathtub and Shower Space.
A receptacle shall not be installed within a bathtub or shower space.

If, or more likely when someone gets fried you and your company will be on the hook big time and no letter you send the owner will get you out of trouble.

Strictly speaking if it kills someone you could face jail time.

Are you willing to go to jail so this home owner can watch TV from their bath?

In John's case if the TV is built in to the tub it may be perfectly OK.

I doubt highly that John would pass it if it was not in compliance. [Linked Image]

Please reconsider completing this installation!

Also remember that even if you move this outlet out of the tub space that all receptacle outlets in bathrooms need GFCIs not just counter receptacles.

Bob
Posted By: e57 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/14/05 01:47 PM
I did something like this some years back, I insisted it wasn't cool, but offered this suggestion, and it might work for you too.

Perminantly glass over the niche, and open an access panel from behind.

or

Have a custom Glass guy put a peice of glass over the niche like Shower Door but with a cabinet lock so it can't be opened accidentally. And the TV can still be operated by remote.

Oh send a registered copy of that letter to your Inspector too, guarentee he'll be back, with second thoughts. Or he should be....
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/14/05 10:39 PM
e57,- That is a great idea, but can't make a back entry, duct work fills all the space. Maybe someone can install a removable glass panel.
Thanks iwire for your input, as always your words are taken seriously, but its out of my hands, and I will not be the one going to jail.
Posted By: pauluk Re: I said no, but....... - 01/14/05 10:47 PM
Makes you kind of long for the days when there was just one family TV in the living room. [Linked Image]
Posted By: e57 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/15/05 01:09 AM
If not the back... the sides?

Or the bolted glass idea, both of which has some other benifits of easy cleaning, looks real top notch if done right, not to mention that safety thing.

You can even get one way glass that looks like a mirror when the TV is off, shows through when on.... A bit dark on the picture though. But is real tricked out on the appearance. And the customer looks like less of a tacky moron/wierdo to his guests for having a TV in the tub. Makes them all wonder about the source video.

Hope this is at least an LCD, or Plasma, and not just some cheap set on a shelf.
Posted By: SolarPowered Re: I said no, but....... - 01/15/05 02:11 AM
zapped208, I don't see how you get to "it's out of my hands." It sounds to me like willful violation of the building codes, and if that results in someone's death, it seems to me that you'd be looking at a manslaughter charge. Not to mention a wrongful death suit looking for everything that you earn for the rest of your life. (IANAL applies to this post.)
Posted By: iwire Re: I said no, but....... - 01/15/05 10:26 AM
Zapped.

Quote
but its out of my hands, and I will not be the one going to jail.

Why is that, because the boss said to do it?

If the boss tells you to whack the customer on the head with a bender who will be in trouble?

A bit over the top for an example but I think it gets the point across.

You are a qualified person that installed an outlet where it is not allowed, you will be held accountable if something happens.

Even if an inspector passes the job it does not let you off the hook.

Forget about jail and lawsuits how will you feel if you contributed to someones death?

Good luck, Bob
Posted By: Dave55 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/15/05 01:19 PM
Lawyers always look for the money. If (like most ECs) you have a million dollar liability insurance policy, you WILL be involved. Then when your insurance pays out, your rates go through the roof & you're out of business.

Dave

[This message has been edited by Dave55 (edited 01-15-2005).]
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/15/05 09:43 PM
We will see what happens on the finish in a couple of months, I will update then.
Like I said.....It's out of my hands.
Posted By: harold endean Re: I said no, but....... - 01/15/05 10:21 PM
This sounds a little bit like a job I was inspecting. The HO told me that he was going to install a receptacle INSIDE of the shower area. I ask him WHY? He said that it was for a special mirror that was lighted for shaving. I asked him for the instructions to make sure that it was listed and labeled for the application. I never got that listing nor did the receptacle go inside the shower.
Posted By: electure Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 09:37 AM
Now that you've told the story Internationally on the internet, it's doubtful that you'd be totally unaccountable for doing something that you knew was terribly wrong.

What-Someboby's trying to give Joe Tedesco's "floating bottle" a run for its money for the electrical Darwin award?

I agree with iwire. You should not complete this, but then you knew that before you started the thread. You might kill someone, and even if you weren't the one going to jail, you still killed someone when you knew better.

Let him run his stupid TV on batteries.
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 12:28 PM
Hey, I can't help it if the boss does not have the *alls to tell this guy NO. Even the builder knows. I did all I could.
Yeah, and get this.....this is going to be a Model home.
Posted By: capt al Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 04:00 PM
Sounds to me like you do not have the *alls to tell the boss NO. It is your work that will be on trial not the bosses. You want to keep it out of your hands, remove the wiring for this installation. Have the boss install it. I would bet he will not, he knows better. You will be his fall guy.
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 05:25 PM
Hey Capt. Been there, done that. Boss really does not care about his company.
Posted By: capt al Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 05:46 PM
Then it is time to find a new job. The boss does not care about his company, that also means he does not care about YOU! This guy will throw you under the bus with this installation.
Take the advice of the other guys posting here and do not install that outlet.It will cause you problems down the road.

Al
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 06:37 PM
Zapped why does it seem that you are fighting everyones opinion? If you did this installation you screwed up. If something happes you are screwed. The thing that is not clear to me is did YOU do this installation?
Posted By: luckyshadow Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 08:01 PM
Zapped-
what about next time ? Yes next time ! you stated this is a model home. people will see this (if not pointed out to them)and they will have to have it also . sounds like a can of worms. DO NOT COMPLETE this installation. Go back and undo any and all wiring and have the sheetrockers mud the hole shut. The boss or contractor can not do anything about it, because they will be pushing YOU to do something wrong. Be smart and do it right. Explain to the boss that it is illegal and you want no part of it, if he insists you do this work say no- might cost you the job but do you want to run the risk of killing some one.
Like I said ... Be smart and do it right
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 08:34 PM
I am not fighting with anyone! Just letting you all know whats happening. Trust me I want to take the box out, but I can't.
Its all up up to the H.O., boss and inspector. I am not going to lose my job over this, and I ain't lookin for another.
I will keep ya'll updated. E.O.D.
Posted By: highkvoltage Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 09:07 PM
Zapped. Don't put the TV in the shower area but suggest to the home owner another location than he can still view is TV but it's in a safe location. If you two can't agree on a new location remove the wiring and refuse to do the job.
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 10:45 PM
I am not so sure that I understand the process here. Where is the electrical inspector, Zapped should be waiting for a violation, not a lawsuit.
What state is this in?
I can tell you that if I was the inspector, Zapped would be writing to tell you the inspector has solved the problem. This type of installation not only gets my attention, but the attention of the building department as I would write an electrical violation and a summons - which goes directly to the local judge.

A receptacle in the tub enclosure - yah right [Linked Image] !!!

Pierre
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: I said no, but....... - 01/16/05 11:15 PM
Yes or no, did YOU install the box?

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 01-16-2005).]
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/17/05 10:21 AM
Box has been installed, 1st floor is rocked and started mudding last Thur.
Posted By: Bert66 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/17/05 03:37 PM
Zapped I would have to aggree with CaptAl on this one. Your boss must not think highly of you. Maybe you should point out the violation in the code book to the HO and your last boss. Notice I said last because today is Monday and I would be looking for another boss would I could lean on when I was unsure of an installation. This guy is only in it for a quick buck.

How long have you worked for this man, and what does the others on the crew think about the installation?
Posted By: Physis Re: I said no, but....... - 01/17/05 07:20 PM
I'm sure the person who wants this TV in the tub invisions him or herself sipping champain and showing off in whatever way and being the master of things mere mortals haven't the where-with-all to control.

I see you're telling the lawyer. I'd guess you have but I haven't seen that anyone has actually mentioned to the individual(s) that this is dangerous. It's a stretch, but maybe they don't know.
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 12:10 AM
So zapped are yo intentionally being evasive? Did YOU, by you I mean YOU yourself inastall it. Or did the boss install it. If you don't want to answer that's fine.
Posted By: electure Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 02:17 AM
Quote
The VDV guys already did their thing and so did I.
Posted By: e57 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 03:10 AM
Gent's... A little slack for the man?

"I said no, but......."

Sounds like he did more than he could with the situation, spare finding another job. It's his Boss's butt in liability, and license if something happens, as HE knows about it, and went agaist the keen observation of his man in the field, who warned him.

Remember, Ollie North followed orders too. Look at him now! [Linked Image]

Technically, It's the INSPECTORS BUTT! IMO

Zapped, CYA, and snap a picture of the inspector standing next to it at final.

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-17-2005).]
Posted By: Dave55 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 03:30 AM
LOL, better yet, a picture of his boss and the inspector shaking hands in front of it.

Dave
Posted By: e57 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 04:16 AM
Don't you mean with a wad of $ in hand. [Linked Image]
Posted By: electure Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 04:37 AM
No, it's the unsuspecting, yes maybe dumb customer that gets hurt or killed....It's their butt.

There have been quite a few alternatives suggested here.

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-17-2005).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 10:12 AM
I'd get rid of that circuit quicker than you could say, "personal liability".
If it comes down to it 208, it will be you that wears the can for this one.
"My boss made me do it" is not a statement that would stand up in any court of law.
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 10:56 AM
O.K. Everyone, I personally did not install the box, helper did cause he was running the job, I was there just to help out cause they wanted to insulate sooner.
This was installed after the rough inspection, since HO was making all kinds of changes while insulaters had most of the floor finnished. I talked to boss about the problem, and he said he will talk it over with the inspector, but meanwhile install the box and wiring. He never called the inspector.
We where roughing the basement while this was all going on.
e57 thank you for your last post, only you seem to understand what I am up against.
Posted By: iwire Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 11:10 AM
Zapped I am curious why you bothered to ask the question in the first place.

It is a violation plain and simple.

If you want to ignore the code that is your choice, a bad one but yours to make.

Quote
Technically, It's the INSPECTORS BUTT! IMO

That is far from the truth, unless the inspector accepts a bribe to overlook it.

When we get our license it is an agreement that we will follow the code, you can not expect an inspector to catch everything.

Although this should be an obvious one to see. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: Trumpy Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 11:30 AM
Hear hear Bob!(Iwire), [Linked Image]
Quote
When we get our license it is an agreement that we will follow the code
And that is the pinnacle of the licenced Electrician, no matter what area or country they come from.
We all have personal standards and a conscience to live with.
Anyone that can sleep at at night after doing a job like that, IMO, needs to find another line of work.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Posted By: Dave55 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 12:36 PM
You can't put this on the inspector when it was installed after the inspection.

Dave
Posted By: e57 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 01:31 PM
Gent's, a man comes to us with a problem, so we tell him to quit his job, (affecting his personal livelyhood) and go on to insult his personal conscience and values. That is NOT right! Neither one is a realistic solution to the problem.

As for Licensing in all states, I don't know...

I have my own license.... Any work I do under that license, I am responsable for. Like-wise any work do by an an employee, I am responsable for.

I closed shop, and went back to work for someone else. I still have my license, but any work I do as an employee under the companies license, they are responsable for.

------------------------------

In a simular situation years ago, I had a boss that wanted me to do some custom control work for a tricked out table. It was sunken into the floor, and raised up and down using hydraulics. The guy doing the hydraulics was using dual acting cylinders, with pumps and cylindrs rated at 20,000lbs, with no blow outs, or limiters. The control diagram had no safety devices. I refused to hook it up and the BOSS had a fit. Said, "Do you want me to get someone else to do it?!"

I told him, "Look these people have small kids in the house, if they chop off their legs in this thing it's all YOU! The only way I'll do it is if it's safe!" After some more arguement he agreed. We made the hydro guy put limiters and blow-outs in, and we put in auto-reverse and stop devices in the controls via touch tape contacts and eyes, and a release under the table, and restricted access via keypad.

Cost the customer a fortune.... But it was as safe as we could possibley get it.

Anyway, it was learning experiance, I thought I'd share.
---------------------------------------

Some solutions:

If the Inspector doesn't know, tell him!
If the Owner doesn't know, tell him.
If the Boss doesn't care tell him...

And if you can't take the TV out of the tub space. Take the tub space away from the TV. (Like I suggested earlier)

Or let this guy watch TV via mirrors, from a safe distance. Get creative with it.... [Linked Image]
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 06:59 PM
"The helper was running the job". This gets better by the minute. [Linked Image]
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/18/05 11:47 PM
O.K., Now that some of you have knocked me down, kicked me, and now taking a dump on me, its now starting to get personal.
So I really don't care now if I get banded from this site. I take my work and trade seriously.
Maybe some of you should read e57 post again.
Yes, scott, the helper is running the job.
Posted By: Dave55 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 12:14 AM
We must have different definitions of "helper".

A journeyman has completed training, an apprentice is in training, and a helper isn't in training. AKA...a gofer or laborer. There may be a GC, supervisor, or foreman over the journeyman, but not a helper.

Now, what do you call a helper?

Dave
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 12:40 AM
I'm not looking to knock you down, you came here with the question but you don't like the answers. That's your choice. To me a helper is an apprentice. I would not have a helper running a job and in my state the owner of the company would get in some trouble for allowing it to happen. And I think you mean "Banned" from the site.
Posted By: electure Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 12:51 AM
I'm not trying to knock you down.
You've done nothing that anyone would want to ban you from the site for.
You take your trade seriously, OK, but all you seem to be looking for is sympathy here, not a resolution to a problem.

If you think the rest of us don't understand, you're wrong. Do you really think that nobody's ever asked me to do something wrong in the last 34 yrs? It happens constantly still. I say no.

I don't suggest that you immediately quit your job, but you certainly should look hard for another, and start right now. You'll get just more of the same if you stay where you are, and yes, it bothers you, which shows that you do care and don't belong there.

The "license" part of this thread may not apply at all. Construction Contractors are not required to have a State license in PA unless they do Public Works. Some local jurisdictions do have licensing requirements. The boss probably has no license to lose.

Please try to do the right thing [Linked Image]

e57, have you ever had any employees?



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-18-2005).]
Posted By: e57 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 01:18 AM
Now there are huge differances in License and Training Laws in all states, and vary so widely that it can be night and day.

Now, from what I remember... I entered the Trade in the Military, after I left MA. (Cambridge) Is that Apprentices were not to be left unattended, with only one Apprentice per Journeyman. (A State, Union, or both - Law) Or something to that effect?

Also, not sure... Is Illinois the same? Also no idea about PA?

That said, in California, I can leave any smuck off the street on the job all day long. (Not that I would, but an extreme example.) I can leave him there to run the job, for months alone.(Not that I would, but an even more extreme example.) The job doent pass inspection, my butt! The guy gets hurt, my butt! The house burns down, MY BUTT! 'Cause it's MY LICENSE!

Would I, or any right minded person do something like that? No! But it is legal. (For now, the laws are about change about that here.) Like I said, I don't know the laws in those states above. In PA, it may be legal?

That said, I think this thread has gone too far. And some of us should take a step back.

Bagging on a spelling era, thats just cheap, what's next puncuation?
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 01:23 AM
1)A helper is slang for apprentice in a non union environment.
2) I cannot change anything until I am told to do so, right or wrong.
Posted By: e57 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 01:25 AM
Sorry electure, you posted while I was ranting above.

Employees? 2 For a short time until I realized I couldn't pay them, now it back to work for someone else for me too, until I get up REAL capital.

That said, I check the work done by all under me, (My company or the one I work for.) and not much slides by me.
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 01:28 AM
Just when I think I am done, Someone pulls me back in!
Posted By: Roger Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 01:29 AM
I have been watching this thread and think there are many good reply's.

Zapped, if you go back and read your first few posts in an unbiased view, you'll have to agree that you led everyone to believe you installed the box.

I could be wrong, but it seems as though you were looking for some support that you haven't received.

As Electure said,
Quote
You take your trade seriously, OK, but the only post you are taking seriously is the sympathetic one, and not the ones with suggestions to help resolve the problem.
you must also weigh the ones that may actually be constructive but painfull, kind of like taking bitter medicine.

There are a number of problems here, (not all inclusive) i.e.

#1 You knowing it is wrong
#2 A helper running the job
#3 Changing the installation after the inspector has left
#4 Not flat out telling the owner, helper, and boss, that this is a violation, period.
#5 Not letting the inspector be an ally, even if it took a phone call from yourself.
#6 And not thinking you would get this type of reaction from the members here.

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 01-18-2005).]
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 01:55 AM
Yes, Roger looks like your right about me leading people thinking I installed the box........ I did not, helper did, after the boss said to do it, fully knowing it is a violation. The HO knows also it is a violation but did not seem to care one way or the other, he just wants to watch tv in the tub.
2) boss gave job to hepler.
3) I am not calling the inspector behind bosses back.
4)Yes, It is very wrong.
5) Some members were down right rude.
Posted By: Roger Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 02:45 AM
Zapped, I must ask one question and then I think we should all move on.

Quote
I am not calling the inspector behind bosses back.
Why, if it would save a person (worst case scenario a child) from being injured or killed?

Roger
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 01/19/05 10:50 AM
I will update here on the finish.
Posted By: zapped208 Re: I said no, but....... - 08/05/05 11:40 PM
Well........finally almost finished with this house,( is there such a thing?), I myself installed a blank cover on the box at the jacuzzi.
H.O. has not said anything yet. they moved in 2 weeks ago. Still have 5 or6 hanging Fixtures to hang. Was a slow project, thats why I hate big houses.
Posted By: LK Re: I said no, but....... - 08/06/05 12:34 AM
Just yesterday my forman, rich comes to me and said, i was asked to look at the bathroom on that hill street job, and they have two wall mounted lights feed with zip cord mounted in the tub area, they said the GC's electrician told them no problem, what do you want me to do?
I want you to rip them out, and remove boxes and cable, i will deal with the homeowner.

But the tile will be damaged,

Rip it out!
Posted By: renosteinke Re: I said no, but....... - 08/06/05 01:03 AM
I think Les is on the right track here....I once came across track lights mounted on the tub area wall, 5 ft above the rim of the tub. While I was hired to "make the switches work right," those track lights came down lickety-split. Then I explained the problem to the homeowner....who was amazed that the "home inspector" who went over the home had missed something like that!

Zapped, I think most of us have lost jobs at least once for refusing to do something inane. It's part of life- sometimes you have to risk it all! There will be a tomorrow!

Amazing what gets counted as "ethics" these days. For example- I never hesitate to "drop a dime" when there's something serious happining. Am I "ratting out" someone....Not as I see things. What I am doing is calling the authorities- whose salary I pay, so I figure they're working for me!- and asking them to do their jobs. That's what I pay them for. The only ones who seem to think this is wrong are the ones who think it's OK for them to break the law.....I have a name for such folks....I call them 'criminals.' Why should I care what a criminal thinks of me?

A "helper" has no business running a job. He just doesn't have either the knowledge or the experience to do so. A boss who asks him to do so is derelct in his duties.

Changes after the inspection? That's either poor planning, or a deliberate attempt to slip something past.

You deserve to learn the trade from a better boss. You certainly deserve a better customer. I'd say it's time for a new job!
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