ECN Forum
Posted By: Fred New Inspector requirement - 12/04/04 11:03 PM
I had a final inspection last week on a new custom home. I was there punching down phone lines in the basement as the inspector went around checking receptacles. I don't like to hover over inspectors as they inspect. The GC came down to where I was and told me the inspector was removing cover plates and pulling switches and receptacles out of their boxes. The GC was having a fit because everything was finished and the inspector wasn't being too careful as far as not sctatching up the walls. I went up and asked him what he was doing pulling energized devices out of wall boxes. Here's what he said and I swear I'm not making this up. "I have a new requirement that all device boxes be either blown out with an air hose or vaccumed and then wiped out with a damp cloth. This will prevent any dust that could ignite if there is an arc in there." I told him he was violating safety rules, voiding the homeowner's warranty and risking damage with what he was doing. When I caught up to him he was cramming my once neatly folded wires back into a receptacle box(metal box lucky he didn't skin a hot one). I also told him he couldn't enforce any such rule because it didn't exist in our locally adopted code. Then the GC jumped him for re-installing the cover plates without making sure all of the screws had the slots vertical(this GC is anal about detail). Just to stir the stink I told the GC in front of the inspector that if I had to straighten any receptacles, cover plates or screws the inspector had jacked with I was going to charge him for it. The GC turned to the inspector and told him he would send the bill to the county. The inspector didn't remove anything else but he left with a 4 gang switch box with all 4 switches hanging out. That was a pain to line up the first time. Have any of you ever heard of this requirement before?
Posted By: earlydean Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/05/04 12:40 AM
Hard to believe such a story. If true, then a call to his boss is in order, as such a thing is way beyond the bounds of inspection.
Posted By: Wirenuttt Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/05/04 02:20 AM
I won't name the town but it was in Massachusetts. The inspector for that town also owned and electrical business. Seemed like he made it hard for several electricians who did work in his area. I do believe it's our rights ( and I must note I'm no longer in the field) to register a complaint with the state board of electricians. Nothing against inspectors, I'm friends with a few of them, but there's always someone, a bad electrican a bad cop, doesn't mean the whole group is bad.
Posted By: Peter Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/05/04 02:36 AM
He could have inspected for "any dust that could ignite if there is an arc in there." by simply removing the cover plate. He did not have to remove the devices themselves. A complaint to his boss should be in order since this extra work is unnecessary and taking up valuable time.
~Peter
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/05/04 02:55 AM
That is an odd story. There is an inspector here in Mass (And I will name the town, Medford) that would not even test the receptacles. He would however make you test them while he watched. He will also make you remove the panel cover so he can look inside. While I do think he should be looking in the panel, I don't think it is unreasonable for the guy to turn out four or six screws. Particularly when an inspection appointment is "Sometime today make sure the cover is off the panel". Yea ok I'll just leave it on the floor, you come by when you get a free minute. [Linked Image]
Posted By: sandsnow Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/05/04 02:58 AM
I did not know drywall dust was flammable?!?!?

Other than that I'm speechless
Posted By: e57 Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/05/04 04:24 AM
Rock dust isn't, but saw dust is. (Usually from trim capentry after the rock goes up.) More often than not they (trim capenters)will still be there when I come back, so I will grab thier compressor hose and blow out my boxes, especially panels, as dust on the breaker busses make for a poor connection, I often wipe them too. With a nozzle you can do it from a few feet away. On that note, never have I had to show that I did it, just thought I was going the extra inch.

But an Inspector with a screw-driver is not cool. Thats my job, I charge exorbanant fees or add it to the bid for me to be there for that wait, and to jump through that hoop, its the most relaxing element of the job for me. (To have the covers off, answer questions, BS, talk shop, drink too much coffee, and open plates if need be.) As said before, no need to remove devices, especially by him, and worse he did it live. IMO The only tool an Inspector should have or use is a pen.
Posted By: earlydean Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/05/04 03:32 PM
I teach inspectors in CT how to be inspectors (the first such program in the country). We teach them that the liability of them taking off covers themselves is enormous. They should have the code books, a tape measure, a receptacle tester, a flashlight, and pen and paper for their tools. Optional tools include a laser pointer. (It sure beats the flashlight for pointing out the items needing attention.)
All items needing to be opened up should be opened up by the contractor. I realize this creates problems with appointments to meet, open panel covers, etc. But, these are things that have to be worked out.

As an aside, when I was inspecting, I would sometimes open panel covers on my own if the electrician wasn't around. (But, I am an electrician, too). And, I might have taken off a faceplate or two for a peek, but I would never take a receptacle or switch out! (too much work to get it back in)

It is a fine line we tread of doing a good and thorough job of inspecting and being helpful to the contractor. After all, the aim of the building inspection department is code compliant and safe buildings in our town. If we make it hard on the builders, then they tend to sneak things past. If we are too easy, then they get sloppy.
It ain't easy to find that combination of enforcement and helpfulness.
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/05/04 04:47 PM
The problem in this state (MA) is that the inspectors are town or city employees. The job is generally not what you know but who you know. Many are part time and not paid very well. It makes it hard for everyone involved. If people had a permit and inspection for every job people did people would never have time to actually perform any work. The reality is "I'll get there some time after eleven" just does not cut it. It is not fair and it is not right. These are our tax dollars and permit fees at work.
Posted By: Steve Miller Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/06/04 11:37 AM
I had half that prob a while back. They wanted the boxes vacuumed before final. They did tell us in advance so it didn't create a prob. At final time the inspector asked me to open 3 boxes (which he chose). He chose 1 gangs so it was fairly painless. We didn't complain 'cause we knew in advance that it was gonna happen.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/06/04 03:58 PM
OK, for those of you who do not know me, I'm an active EC, (25 yrs) and a P/T inspector, as an employee of a township, not a third party guy.

As an EC, we leave our jobs "clean" for final, like the majority of "us" do, and we also take pride in what we do.

As an AHJ, NO I do not and will not remove plates and/or devices. YES, I remove the 4-6 screws for a panel inspection, and NO, I will not open a large I-line type panel, or any parts of switchgear.

"Appointments" in my twp are "made" by calling myself or the FT AHJ on the AM of your scheduled day for a "ballpark" time, usually "between 10-12" or "11:30/12" We do not 'schedule' the day, the office staff does that. Yes, we 'squeeze' in the occasional "I'm in trouble" call, but it's tight with 15+ scheduled stops.

As to the original "dust" thing; above and beyond the call of duty?? Most, if not all the resi new construction guys 'rough wipe' all the junk from the boxes when they trim-out.

IF opening all the device covers were a required inspection item, some days I may be able to do ONE house. Liability is also an issue; push the device back in, skin a hot, who gets to 'fix' it??

John
Posted By: Fred Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/06/04 06:07 PM
When I finish a house(plug & switch)I go to each device box and remove drywall compound and brush out the box with my fingers. The GC on the job I originally posted about shop vacs the job every day. He doesn't cut trim inside the house. He uses fiberglass insulation in the walls. There isn't any combustable dust in the boxes. I may not wipe the boxes out with a damp cloth but I assure you they are not tinderboxes by any stretch of the imagination. The inspector goes around to EVERY receptacle and tests for correct wiring, voltage drop and GFCI/AFCI where it applies. This is a house I mentioned on another thread that I ran all the homeruns in EMT to pull boxes in the crawl and ran NM from the pull boxes to the branches. He doesn't like that either. He says I shouldn't mix wiring methods on a job. He says as soon as he finds a code article to back him up he'll fail me down the road for doing it. Inspecting is a new responsibility for him. His main responsibility is being the weights and measures officer for the county. It totally amazes me that I am required to pass an exam,show proof of liability and pay a licensing fee to the county every year so I can be inspected and regulated by someone whose only job requirement is that they have a pulse and can check a box on a form that says Pass/Fail. Don't get me wrong, I am all for inspections and permits. I just think that an inspector should have to meet minimum standards of knowledge in the trade he's inspecting and keep updated with the codes.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: New Inspector requirement - 12/06/04 08:23 PM
Fred:
OK, a 'multi-task' inspector on your end.
Here the electrical inspectors have to:
Trade experience (5 YEARS)
Test, written; ICS, HHS, Plan Review
Further is a "Sub-Code" course for Administrative skills.
Also, Continuing Ed. is required; 3x8 hrs for AHJ, additional 3x8 for Administrative, and 34 for your EC License.

Take care

John
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