When installing customer supplied fans, do you take responsibility for balancing if needed? If a customer called you back to balance the fan they purchased but you installed, would you charge them?
Thanks... B

I always test and balance the fan before leaving and demonstrate the fan at the highest fan speed for the customer.

I never balance fans. Unless they want to pay time & material (I guess just time). But even then, you can't guarantee it won't wobble, so why are they paying you to do it? And it seems to be inversely proportional that the less they spend, the more time it takes to balance.

I always tell them that it is an after thought on the part of the manufacturer to make up for poor engineering. The instructions are simple enough, they spend as much time as they feel it is worth.

Unless it is a nice person who is obviously severely mechanically challenged, then I will consider doing it quickly as a courtesy, but never as an obligation.

I've always considered fan balancing to be part of the install. If I can't get a reasonable balance in 10 minutes I'll give up and let the owner decide what to do.

Fan installation is T&M, if they demand a price we refuse the job, when we were charging $270 for fan installation, with customer supplied fan, we were loosing money on every job, so we went to T&M. balance is part of the job, however some of the cheap fans will never balance, let the customer know up front that not all fans will balance.

I installed fans for 6 ceiling fan stores in the late '80s and early '90s. Part of the deal was that I perfectly balance every fan and guarantee it for a year. EVERY fan can be perfectly balance if you know a few tricks. However, I've never been able to pass these skills to every electrician I hire. So now my guys are instructed to attempt to balance for about 5 minutes, if they can't get it then we will try longer if the customer wants to pay, otherwise the customer just gets a wobbly fan. Because I have extensive experience in ceiling fans (I installed 5-10 a day for about 6 years), I wish I could still guarantee perfect fans, but I would have to do it myself.

I tell the customer up front that balancing of the fan is not included. Like it's been said here, you might spend a few minutes or a few hours depending on the fan.....

It's a tough call with the quality of customer purchased fans. In the time period that Electric Eagle mentions you could get a quality Hunter (before they went to China) that didn't need balancing. It had a solid mounting base and was close to being balanced.

Today I'm likely to get a fan with a narrow rectangular mounting base and it's only hanging by two screws. It's not so much that it's out of balance, but it's rocking on the base. I hung one a few months ago that had a great base and assembled easily. I thought I finally had a fan I could recommend. I turned it on and it made a loud motor noise.

If the fan has a solid base, I'll usually take the few minutes to balance it. However, sometimes it's a loosing cause.

Don't you just LOVE the Home Depot signs that sell fans that "can be installed in a few minutes".

Dave

Eagle,
You said you did, 5 to 10 installations a day, did you work a 24 hour day?
We get there and find a box with old rubber rot wire, that falls apart in your hand, now the real fun begins, the ceiling is lath and plaster, Ya I can see doing 5 of these installs a day, lunch would be at midnight.
Just wondering if you had to install fan support and remove a ceiling box with pass through wiring. I guess we just got all the bad jobs.

I hear you on that one, LK. I guess the time period is around 1940. The wires have varnished cambric insulation (technically cloth rot, not rubber rot). All the insulation flies away from the heat of the light. Now the wires are uninsulated and way too short.

I go in the attic and all the room's receptacles are wired from that same small junction box. I cut all the wires back into new insulation, install two new junction boxes and a ceiling fan rated box where the pan was (after cutting the metal joist-span bracket). Then it's fan assembly and installation time. I don't know about you guys, but I'm a little over 2 hours at this point (OK, so I'm old & slow). The only bright side is that the attics in that time period are roomy.

Dave

Dave,
We had some on first floor, with no attic access, and also K&T wiring, and then the customer that has parts missing, or I bought the fan for $49.00 and the Box store man told me i could get someone, for $50 to install it.

LK, most of the houses in my area are less than 30 years old. If a guy takes more than 30 minutes installing a fan, he's too slow. My personal best is to go in a house, install a fan, and be back in the truck with a check in 14 minutes. I had a system that worked well. But all I did was install fans, no outlets, no service upgrades, just fans. In the summer I worked 14 hour days. There's only 1 of my fan stores in the area now, HD put them out of business, otherwise I might still be installing fans.


[This message has been edited by Electric Eagle (edited 10-29-2004).]

It's rare for there to be an existing ceiling fan rated box in this area (even in new construction), so the job entails more than assembling the fan.

Dave

... For the most part,(maybe I've been lucky)..but I've installed alot more "hugger" type fans,..which don't oscillate as if they were installed on a downrod.Knowing me,I'd get suckered into the balancing thing,not so much for the customer,but for my own fastidious tendencies,..I'm very "anal retentive" about my work,and if it don't look or behave right,I HAVE to fix it...It drives my helper crazy..We'll get done trimming out a job,and the truck is all packed up,and ready to go,and I'll go back and make sure the cover plates are straight,and the screws all go vertical....I can't help it.He calls it Obsessive Compulsive Disorder,..Maybe,..but I want it done just right....whats funny is,..I'm a slob at home..
Russ

I think we have a new trivia in the making, Russ. Do the screws go vertically, horizontally, or perfectly torqued regardless of slot position?

Dave

Dave,
Same here almost all the fan jobs we get need a fan support bracket, and then there is the light kit, and patch or cover the ceiling, time to move the table and put down the drop cloth, and remove the old light fixture, there goes 15 minutes.

I never take responsibility for the customer supplied eqpt. T&M only. If they pay me to balance it then I'll guarantee it to stay balanced.

Horizontally, of course. Otherwise they're pointing in the wrong direction.

Seriously, though, how do you balance a fan? I followed the instructions for one in my own home, for an hour. Then, I just turned it off and got drunk.

It takes a real artist to balance a fan, twh.
1). Clip the plastic fake-weight on a blade (call it #1). Turn fan on high. Better or worse wobble??? Turn fan off & slap the blades to stop the fan. Repeat on all blades.
2). Pick the best one (weight on-least wobble) & move the clip forward & back on that blade. Best position gets the real weight.
3). If not perfect...repeat.

An hour is way too long. If it isn't perfect in 5 minutes, turn it off & get drunk.

Dave

Someone from here at ECN asked me in an email to explain how to balance a fan. I really don't know if this can be taught on a message board, but I'll give it a try.

Fan Balancing 101 - Preventing the wobble

1. Don't put the blades on the fan until the motor is hanging. The blade arms tend to get bent, even slightly, when the fan is preassembled on the floor.
2. Make sure the box is secure and the mounting bracket is tight to the ceiling. Correct if needed.
3. Make sure the set screws that hold the ball to the down rod and the rod to the fan are perfectly tight. Also make sure the blades are tight.
4. Avoid using long pullchains as these tend to exaggerate any wobble. Make sure the pullchains don't touch the light kit, if any, to avoid the chain hitting on the glass.

Fan Balancing 102 - Preparation

1. If a fan wobbles, don't just start bending the blade arms! You're just going to make it worse.
2. Throw away the cheap balance kit that comes with most fans. The best is the one that comes with Hunter fans. Save these when you have them left over. The lead tape and those white clips are the best. If you run out of lead tape, a nickle and double stick foam tape will produce the same weight.
3. You need at least 3 of the test clips to balance a fan properly and quickly.

Fan Balancing 201 - Advanced Studies

After doing the steps you learned in Fan Balancing 101 and 102, you're now ready to start balancing.
1. Turn the fan on high and in the down(summer) position. Place your ladder directly under the fan and stand on a step that puts you close to the fan without hitting your head. While the fan is on, observe the amount of wobble.
2. Turn the fan off by pulling the chain or using the remote. You can help stop the blades with your hands if you're careful.
3. Now pick a blade. Mark this blade as your start blade, you may want to number the blades.
4. If the wobble on high was minor, put a test weight on your start blade fairly close to the motor. If the wobble was bad, put the test weight near the end of the start blade away from the motor. Or put the test weight somewhere in the middle for moderate wobble. Turn the fan on and see if the fan is better or worse. If this fixed the problem, put your permanent weight on the top of the blade where your test weight was.
5. If the start blade was not the correct blade, make note of if there was any change, then move to the next blade with the weight in the same position. Repeat this action for every blade. It is important to put the test weight in the same spot on each blade.
6. Now go the blade that produced the best improvement. Try increasing or decreasing the weight by moving the test weight away from the motor or towards the motor. Once you have this blade as good as it will get, leave the test weight in place and try the same procedure on one of the blades next to this blade. If this didn't help try the blade on the other side. When you find a major improvement, leave the test weight in place and try another blade.
7. Once you have your test weights in the proper place to perfectly balance the fan, place permanent weights on the top sides of the blades.

I know this sounds like a time consuming process, but it really doesn't take that long (usually).

Eagle,

I printed your balance post, and put them in the trucks. The guys, still want to see you install a fan in 15 minutes, install support box, assy fan, hang and balance, they said they would pay to see that. Maybe we should have a contest on fan installations, with a prize for the fastest installation. We get some real good ones, with lath and plaster, tin ceilings, 40's wiring, just haven't hit those newer homes much.

LK, I'm good, but not that good. To install a fan in 15 minutes everything has to be just right. Fan box existing, simple fan, etc. For these conditions, I consider 30 minutes or less acceptable. Luckily around here most houses are fairly new and anything newer than 10 years is likely to have a fan rated box.

Side Note. Would anyone else like to see a code change to require a fan rated box (or at least metal) in every bedroom, family room, breakfast room, or any room a heavy fixture or fan is likely to be installed?

[This message has been edited by Electric Eagle (edited 11-01-2004).]

that wouldn't bother me at all. I would probably word it any habitable room over xft X xft. exceptions: bathrooms, closets ..... pendants over an island... hmmmm. this could get haphazard enforcement.
How about use common sense..... hmmmm...... that could get difficult too.