I searched the archives and couldn't find anything, I thought this was discussed somewhere here before.
If you fail an inspection, do you pay the reinspect fee or tell the GC or HO it is their responibilty? If so how do you justify that to them?
How about the requirement for a bond in different villages? If you forget to include verbage in the proposal that says you are not responsible for fees or any additional items required by the village, how do you explain that to them. They ALWAYS assume you will pick that cost up (as an operating expense I suppose, rather than a job expense).
How about the endless contractor registration fees? The way it is set up on the villages end, they try to make it look like it fee to the EC for the privillage of doing work in the community, and it is hard to convince them otherwise. Even after I have explained it to the GC and he's agreed, I still hear "I registered you in 20 villages last year, cost me $XXXX," like he's doing me a favor.
Or do some of you just suck it up because for the amount of money, find it is good to not give the HO or GC the impression that they will get nickled & dimed to death?
Sounds like your doing work in IL.
The worst I had to pay $75 plus 20K bond to work in a city of less than 1000 people.
I got this from resqcapt19.
(65 ILCS 5/11‑33‑1) (from Ch. 24, par. 11‑33‑1)
Sec. 11‑33‑1. The corporate authorities of each municipality may require the registration of electrical contractors, and may impose an annual registration fee of $25 on each registered contractor. An electrical contractor who is registered in one municipality, however, shall not be required by any other municipality to be registered or to pay a registration fee in the other municipality.
Had my attorny verify it. I fax a copy of my licience (never give to anyone elce) and insurance to the village. On a cover letter I include the following if they intend on charging a EC village registration fee.
"I was informed by my attorney that an electrical contractor can not be required to register or pay a registration fee of more than $25 under Illinois law (chapter 24, paragraph 11-33-1). Also the electrical contractor shall not be required to pay a registration fee in more than one municipality. Enclosed are several contractor registration fees paid this year in Illinois. Below is the exact statute."
Works 1/2 the time. The other times I pay it. I tried going back and forth about it. It was not worth the agervation. It's not leagal but I would rather not get PO over it. Plus they still have to pass you.
I don't have a problem with failed inspections. I do check the local amendments to the code. Talk to the inspector about judgement calls. It does help if you are there for inspection. You can answer questions and ask about anything special they might require or look for in your project. I also tend to excede requirements of the NEC. If a few villages have special amendments I tend to do it in all the jobs if it's minnor just to avoid problems.
I make the GC get the permit or I add that to the bill for the HO.
I can't help you on the bonds. It is crazy to require the EC to buy a bond in every town, village, & city. I think that will go away if they ever get the state wide licenceing. I never got anyone to pay for those. I just figure it in the job. My guy takes about a week to get a 10K bond for about $50. I had to get one the next day for the GC and paid $125 thru someone elce. I never tried but on the back of some it has a cancelation policy. Like you can cancel it after the job and get a parcial refund.
How can you even think of charging the customer for a re inspection unless the customer themselves somehow caused the failure of the inspection?
When we do a job we pay for everything, of course this is already figured into the quoted price.
That said we do not have this registration fee to worry about, that sounds like a real pain in the rear.
I'm with iwire here. I would never charge a customer for a reinspect fee unless it was their fault(job locked).
I would include any and all fees in my bid. If I miss some fee, I'll pay it myself, never ask them to pay it.
Thanks for asking Bob. My reasoning is that the code is subjective, open to interpretation. I have seen two different inspectors require exactly opposite things. Rather than waste even more time and money arguing, sometimes I just “fix” it. Or if I have convinced the inspector of the error of his ways there is always 1 item he won’t budge on, because to some degree he still has to be right. Now don’t get the impression I fail stuff often, that rarely is the case. The only time I haved failed is when I’m too busy to be on site. And if it was something blatently obvious I probably wouldn't think of charging anyone.
But getting back to my reasoning, why should I be liable for something I have no control over, that being the ebbs & flows and way the wind blows of some of the inspectors judgments?
And really, this only applies to the smaller resi stuff. I actually think it is harder to fail the bigger commercial stuff because most of the stuff is engineered already, and by the time the project is done you have a good working relationship with the inspector anyway. I shouldn't split that into resi & comm. I should say the smaller jobs are easier to fail. Also there is less time and incentive to do alot of the prediscussion Active 1 is talking about on the smaller stuff.
"Why should I be liable for something I have no control over, that being the ebbs & flows and way the wind blows of some of the inspectors judgments?"
I guess you should ask why the customer should pay for something he has no control over. In many situations the customer is forced to hire a professional. The professional should know enough to do the job right according to the inspector.
Only time we ever pass on re-inspections is like everybody else, job fail due to customer or GC fault.
For instance: I show up to wait for the inspector.
GC has plumber put water heater in front of service panel.
GC opens wall and subjects its content to inspection.
Owner refuses corrective work on existing hack job.
Others monkey around with, or damage my work!
All of the above are grounds for pissing the Electrician off, and back-charge / change-order.
I find more often than a cutomer elects to hire a professional, or at the very least elects to have work and is forced to hire a professional, but at some point they make a choice. Very rarely is someone forced to have work done and forced to hire a pro.
But I disagree, a pro should know enough to get the job done right.....acording to the inspector is another matter. And I'm not talking major stuff here like what size to fuse #12. I'm talking the stuff that get's disagreed upon everyday around here. The stuff that is more than acceptable everywhere else you do work and then one day blindsides you because one particular inspector has a hang-up. And yes you could debate endlessly (as occationally happens here) but in the end less time would be spent just "correcting" it after the AHJ knows where you stand. Either way (in some places) your going to have to have a reinspect fee paid before they reschedule.
And yes the customer should foot the bill for things he has no control over when it comes to his property. He has little control over his taxes, over his permit fees, over approval of his plans, and of who his AHJ is.
and on a small job it just doesn't pay to have me waiting around at $75/hr between the hrs of 8:00-4:30 to try to avoid a $40-60 reinspect fee.
You never said exactly what your violations are?
If you want to work in a new area than you need to find out what is required of the EC. It is not that you have to do that with every little job. Just every little town you work in. Invest your time to get to know the areas you work in or stick to places you know. If you act like an outsider than sometimes the village gives you a harder time.
I beleve it is the EC job to find out what is required of them to have a job aproved. Not make it work and good enough in most places. A failed inspection of the EC work is unprofessional. I have konwn EC to hire less skilled workers that takes many inspections to get it right. The EC could be liable for more than a reinspection fee. What is it worth to the GC to be put behind schedule? Does it give a non-paying customer another reason? What does the HO think when they are told by the inspector that your work is not right? What do they think if you tell them the inspector is wrong? I never did but I might offer a credit back to a good GC if I failed.
The customer should foot the bill. The bill for you to get a copy of the amendments, bond, and other messing with the building department. It should figured in the orignal estomate. It does not matter how small the job is you have to figure in for this.
If you are a conscientious electrician, the correction notices are few and far between. The expense is minimal when you consider how seldom you have to deal with this situation. In new towns I usually talk with the inspector to find out what they're looking for.
We have a sharp inspector on the commercial work I'm doing. He wrote a correction notice at rough for one knock-out on a junction box (I hadn't installed the connector yet). Of course he also wrote something for all the other trades. The general pays the reinspection fee.
In a way, the inspector is doing us a favor by creating a checklist for all the trades to get through that inspection. We do what's on the list and then it passes. It's well worth the small reinspection fee.
In my area homeowners and business owners are not allowed to do work that requires a permit. Those people are forced to hire a professional if they need to change their electric work. (I am sure that many people including my self are happy to hire professionals.)
My practice is for me to pay for any reinspections or appeal/legal fees that result from my doing work.
The code is not subjective and open to interpretation. In the appeals process (courts) if the work MEETS ANY interpretation of the code it is code compliant. (The inspector can fail work only if it FAILS ALL interpretations.) Kick your inspectors real hard a couple times and they will enforce the just the code.
Re-inspect fees are basically non-existant here in NJ. The permit fees charged by the municipalities cover ALL inspections required. (Rough, ceiling, trench, bond,TCO, final etc)
Yes, I have had jobs as a AHJ that have numerous "fails" and numerous re-inspects, and it's all within the 'base' fee.
Short & sweet; an HVAC CU replacement ($35) elec permit fee can (and sometimes does) get unlimited inspections. Usually, after 2 fails the "EC" gets a personal call.
Fees are controlled by Municipal Ordinances, and 3rd party fees are contractually set.
Our 'Bond' is State mandated, and no municipal fees (Lic/Reg) may be assessed to State Lic EC's doing only electrical work.
I should add that the reinspect fees seem to come from the very small departments around here...every little town or village has a builbing dept.. Many of the smaller towns subcontract the inspections.