I recently ran into some trouble with a tricky Town here.

Has anyone ever been required to install air tight recessed cans by a town or AHJ? Today the inspector failed my 6" IC rated cans and stated they need to be air tight. I have 15 years in the trade and work all over this county and have never heard anything like this before. As far as I know there is no energy code in force here like CA or WA.

silverbk,

did he cite an NEC code violation? Or is this some building inspector?

Are you working in a plenum ceiling?

We in CA aren't required by our incredibly strict energy regs to do that.

Where are you located and what type of situation (Building, Construction etc) is this in?

Bill

Some locations in Wisconcisn are requiring the use of air tight devices and boxes to prevent compromising the insulation system vapor barrier.

They have been rigid with the IC cans, but are still lax concerning the switch and recept boxes.

Please, who makes "air tight" cans, or what renders a can airtight?

This is a residential setting ie a private house. There is no plenum. It is a sheet rock ceiling that will be insulated. This was by order of an electrical inspector from the New York Board of Fire Underwriters. The inspectors here apparently go along with whatever municipality or utility has juristiction.

Air tite recessed cans are nothing new they are available from most can manufacturers, they are however more expensive than ic and non-ic cans and are usually special order.

I am going to challenge the inspector to see why he is demanding this requirement. I am using ul listed ic rated cans and unless he is going to pull some kind of energy code on me they should suffice.

Don't CHALLENGE the inspector. Simply and calmly ask him to cite the codes that you've violated. Then, if after going over the code sections together, come to a simple agreement. Do what is agreed on. A challenge is about the fastest way to PO an inspector.
Don't roll over, and don't back off if you're right, but do your homework before you call him down.

If the problem lies with the distance from insulation, they needn't be airtight, unless required by, like you say, another code. Any form of effective barrier should be OK in that case.





[This message has been edited by electure (edited 08-31-2001).]

I am finishing up a kitchen re-model that someone else started and was fired from. It is a one story addition (the opposite of the ceiling is the roof). The first contractor roughed-in hi-hat housings that have shoe box sized housings,(I believe MR-16 fixtures) I think they may be airtight. Maybe due to the ceiling being opposite the roof there is an energy issue. Is this an energy, or fire safety requirement?

Redsy;
i couldn't find you a pix but this is from the RUUD lighting site;

New Airtight Recessed Cans
Recessed downlights can create open airways between temperature-controlled rooms and their uncontrolled attic or plenum spaces. Our new Insulated Ceiling Air Tight Recessed Downlights (ICAT Series) minimize air infiltration and leakage. This is especially important in states where codes require airtight recessed fixtures. Our ICAT Series is offered in three popular models, 4" Incandescent (R4ICAT), 6" Incandescent (R7ICAT) and 6" Fluorescent with 18W lamp (R7FICAT18). For other projects where direct contact with insulated ceiling materials may occur, use the 4" Low Voltage Incandescent (R4LICAT), 6" Economy Incandescent (R7EIC) or 6" Incandescent for remodel projects (R7RIC). If you choose to use another housing, be sure the insulation is at least 3" away from housing and junction box.

all they have different is a gasket around the trim hole, big !*&%$ deal! They are buried in insulation as it is. I also had an architect spec out vapor barior boxes once, they come with a little plastic flap. Being that i live up in the great white north i get this all the time, people retire here, build a post & beam streesskin home, insulated to R-346 to the point where the piolets go out in the stove and furnace due to lack of O2, and mama always has a headache...he**, a fart sticks around 3 days....but they save a whole 20% off normal construction fuel costs by god!
A few homes that i did like this came to the relization that they had a problem, so then they called in some NEW engineers that addressed the air exchanging, more ductwork etc...
There seems to be this manufacturing hype that drives this 'energy code' thing.....

Let 'em all go cut wood I say, maybe then they would'nt grow A***s the shapes of thier chairs an' stumble around for thier nitro everytime the doorbell rings

oh,all rantings aside....
electure (Scott) is right, pullin' the lions tail only results in a toothy grin.
a compromise of a few tubs of caulking should equate to the same end result.

Sparky,

My Sister's up in NH and built a house about 10 yrs ago. We always kid them that they have to open a window to close a door. My brother-in-law asked if He could caulk the holes in the device boxes! I don't know if He did though.

My parent's house is in the same area and they had a real cold air coming down out of the 10 or 12 cans in the Kitchen because there was too much airflow in the Attic above. I can really see an application for airtite there. (But I mean a can without all the holes in it) They weren't available at the time though.


Bill

LOL!
i had a service call to a home where the owner had filled every device box on an external wall with that spray foam insulation stuff. i still don't know why it did'nt short, i figured he must of shut down the circuit until it dried....

Sparky,
Thanks... for the fart joke, especially!
Can't wait to use it.

Coming from the TRUE great white North, this requirement is not unusual, in order to maintain a proper vapor barrier...have you ever removed a coverplate, and felt a cold draft? It's just a way of preventing condensation. In my opinion, having seen rot around cieling fixtures, it's a necessity in Northerly climates. You don't fill the gaps with foam.

Roger that mickky

It must also be said that not all cans are created equal. The good IC's are a round can within a captive square can, the IC/NON-IC lousey ones are much less structural. The installation of the good ones usually means a larger square area of cieling contact and less chance for drafts.

Proper insulation techniqes also come into play here, i had one job where the GC's 16 yr old was not going to cut around ANYTHING while installing it.

He simply kicked it into the wired bays, pushing the wires out toward the unsided exterior and crushing the insulation down, as well as simply crushing it up against all the device boxes leaving gaps above , below and posterior to them. This had all occured before i could catch up to the baggy pants nose ringed little B*****D, and the GC just made light of it, oh well...

On to vapor barriers, seems the carpenters have the biggest disputes here, i do like when the plastic is internal, and covers all the device boxes, the sheetrock is applied and they all look shrink wrapped. seems like a good seal to me

After meeting with the inspector in person, he has informed me that Air tight cans are required by the local building department, making it in effect a local energy code, which as we all know supercedes the NEC. It only applies to this village and two other small ones in my county.

I have found a source for air tite cans and they are not much more than IC rated cans. If they are really that much better I will install them everywhere.

If you buy enough stuff from Ruud, they send you some really knockout pastries at Christmas! (this is very important, you know)