... Back in January,of this year,I took on a big job,re-wiring an old gutted,14 room Victorian house from top to bottom.The terms were to be time and material,and was accepted and signed on my proposal.We worked our way thru the 1st 3 rooms for the first week,and encountered lots of set-backs in regard to the plans..Walls were missing,partitions,etc..There was no legend for what type of light went where,as the plan was not drawn by a licenced architect,but an "interior designer"...I informed the H.O. that I needed to know what went where,and needed the framing to be complete.He said "Can't you go to another area in the house to work"? I replied that thats not how I planned to work,as the job was extensive,and wanted to methodically finish one level at a time.(There were 3 levels).The H.O. then told me to contact the "architect" via telephone,and go over the plans that way,because the "architect" lived in Miami,Fla...I called him,and after about 2 hrs. of talking long distance,notated my set of drawings.I moved forward..At the end of the week,I submitted an invoice based on labor and material costs that were incurred..The H.O. paid me in check...OK, now to start work elsewhere,..against my better judgement..I completed 4 more rooms,and told the H.O. that until he had ALL the framing completed,I would not be coming back..3 months later,the H.O. called me and told me I was discharged from the job,to turn in my key,and remove my "personal effects" from the house,he also said he'd gotten another E.C to come in and finish..I argued that we had a signed contract,and that if he really wanted to do that,well,he had to settle up with me,regarding the additional 4 rooms,that I'd completed.He exploded,and said he didn't owe me a dime,that that work was paid for under the old invoice he'd already paid for..This was not the case,..so I tried to calmly talk to him and he just hung up on me..The following day,I went to the house,took my stuff,and proceeded to CUT all the wiring I'd just installed and not gotten paid for..Bad move..He called the Police,and pressed charges on me for stealing "thousands of dollars worth of electrical supplies,and vandalizing (cutting the wires)in his house"..Before they could issue a warrant for my arrest, I went to the Police dept.,and spoke to a Detective there,and told him my side of the story..Long story short,I contacted the H.O. from hell,and told him I'd return said materials,..(1/2 a reel of 12-2 romex,1/2 a reel of 14-3 romex,some plastic nail-on boxes)and repair any wiring that was cut.He agreed,but will not retract the charges until everthing is repaired...I made a big mistake..The $2,000.00 he owed me wasn't worth the trouble... I lost about a year off my life due to the stress..Never Again!!
Russ

[This message has been edited by Attic Rat (edited 06-13-2004).]

Ouch, but I think you also just became a better man in the process.

When there's a contract and any a flare-up, the best thing you can do is to eliminate or clarify any uncertainty as to where you stand legally by calling a lawyer (or someone who has had a reasonable outcome after a similar situation if you're unable to contact a lawyer). The best way to proceed is to have your emotional outburst or venting in your own space (or here, for example) and then put a lid on your emotions in order to get through the steps of dealing with the issues with clarity and better judgement.

On a lighter note, anytime I hear of wire-snipping I think about the story my parents tell of my dad's attempts to completely rewire a car. He got it all wired, connected the battery cables and .... NADA. He tried a couple different things and .... NADA. He got so mad that he went around to every wire he could find and snipped it. I never heard whether the car got finished or sent to salvage in their wrecking yard.

No problem with taking back the supplies (if they were yours), but cutting the installed wiring was the mistake.

Once equipment is installed into the building, it becomes part of the structure, and removing or damaging it is vandalism.

Next time, file a mechanic's lien against the property, and haul the HO into court.

...Honestly, the materials weren't mine,..I "appropriated them in an effort to re-imburse myself for the work that wasn't paid for"..I know,.."2 wrongs don't make a right" and all, but I was fuming!!! I guess my judgement was clouded,and I didn't consider the consequences ...What a lug-head I am...

<quote>
...What a lug-head I am...
<unquote>

WAS... what a lug-head you 'was'... (silliness intended)

since you've learned your lesson you aren't one any longer.

This is why most subs should not work for homeowners acting as GCs.

You really need a lawyer as a friend. Hire one to do all of the little legal work you need done and he will be around to advise you on issues like this.

Russ,
I'm not sure how the lien laws in your state work, but I know my company deals with placing a lien on property a few times a year out of the thousands of jobs we do... One of those liens went from $1700 when it was placed in 1998, to about $8000 when the HO just recently tried to sell his house

-Randy

Tough break Attic Rat,definitely a lesson to be learned.The thing I always find amazing that there is always some other EC out there willing to finish a job that obviously another electrician has started.I've been called out to look at work that others had started and never take it on.Once Had a GC I had done some work for call me and needed an "emergency" rough in for a basement finish job(needed it the next day).Against my better judgement I told the GC I would do it but would charge him my (double time)rate to get it done the next day.He agreed.(I had to postpone another job)Well after rough in and inspection the GC "freaked out" upon getting my bill(he paid me 75 %) and found someone else to finish it.I found out who it was (it was a brand new Ec)and upon me calling him to tell him what I thought of what he did,he told me "Well if your prices weren't so high I wouldn't have stole it from you.I need work."Got to love people like that.Best of luck to you attic rat we are all learning from our mistakes.

njwire nut said it best, as i remember it they cannot sell there house (in the future) until they settle with you.

My suggestion is to
1) talk to a lawyer well versed in construction contracts in your state.
2) if possible file a lien on the work you did less the cost for you to fix the damage you did and wait for the home owner to try to sell. He will then have one bill to pay to compensate you for his bad faith.
3) learn to bill out every day for time and material work, you do not have to send the bill out every day, just send on at your normal billling cycle for that job.
4) If you can have a place to put all your tools and materials every day that is not inside the building as part of your every day clean up. I use a trailer.


This way if a home owner wants you off his job you can hook up and leave and with no material or tools inside you can more easily walk away. As ways stated once something is installed it's there and unless your contract gives you repossesion rights it's stays there. And if you bill out daily for work done that day, you have a docuementaion trail for the setteling up arguements.

I learned this the hard way, just like it seems you are now learning.

Have been on both sides of those job take overs, I try to make sure that any job I take over is because of the previous E/C inabnility to do the work not because the homeowner wants a ceaper bid.


Good luck.

Well stated - My old EC used to keep a gang box in the garge, but not "inside the house" just for that reason. He also taught me about keeping repo as an option, and ALWAYS including access rights as part of a contract... just in case!

If I ever go on a job that has been half done, I try to see why that is so.If it is down to incompetance on the part of the 'electrician/handy man/building super', then ill bid the job at a regular price. If the job looks like it was being done professionally, ill ask my self why wasnt it finished? am i going to get grief over this.. when i bid the job i will then double it. this has one of 2 outcomes, the client may well go back to the origonal company and agree to pay them accordingly etc etc, if not, and i win the job i score financially .it makes up for the times where we dont get a result from those bounced check moments that occur on occasions.

... Well, I contacted the H.O.,and apologized for the "disconnecting" of the wiring,and told him I'd return any supplies he "thinks" were his,as well as repairing the wiring as long as he stops legal proceedings...he agreed.I then brought him the said supplies and made arrangements to do the repairs...After he got the stuff back,the sleazo tried to extort $4000.00 from me saying he now doesn't want me there,that he has a new EC,and if I don't give him $4000.00,he's going after my Licence...sounds like extortion to me,...I'm seeing a Lawyer on Wed...this guy won't stop,..He agreed with me to the return of the stuff,and the repairing,and now is going back on his word... I'll see him in court...Seems he's trying to get me to pay for the deposit due the new EC,..as most of the existing wiring I'd installed and gotten paid for,(and not cut) has to be redone,due to a framing issue,and all the wiring is now BEHIND another newly framed wall..everything got buried because they had to "thicken" the walls...
Russ

Russ,Don't get upset by this but,in next state over from me(New Hampshire), I've read about a fellow who got his license suspended for a similiar situation.The vandalism thing is what is going to hurt you in this case.Get a lawyer who is familiar with construction contracts/practices.I hope it turns out OK for you.
Andy

Never ever start a rough until the framing is done. Unless you like headaches.

Excuse me for asking, but how did you get to the point where the homeowner fired you? Was there any communication between "I be back when it's ready" and "You're fired".
It sounds to me, if you had a contract, that before you cut the wires you had a great case to be paid damages of your own. I suggest you try once more to patch things up with the home owner, perhaps a written apology before the legal route.

Never ever start a rough until the framing is done.

Amen to that. I've lost jobs because the HO's wanted me to "just start" and I was firm on the framing being 100%. They don't understand what a PITA that can be.

-Hal

Do they have "Lein Law", where you're at?!There's nothing that scares a someone to pay due, than a Bank that's pissed due to a lein. It's a real pain, takes time, a real hassle for all, but better than getting locked up, or having a bad rep.

Long ago, (Ten years) when I was kinda new (4 years)I went on a Service Call with this guy who was showing me the ropes. ( of the bussiness end) Don, and Mike, if you're reading this, I learned SO much from you guy's! Anyway, Don and I go out to this Print Shop with no power. We get the work order signed, and Don starts taking the panel cover off the main, we both notice the service is brand new! Big 3 phase 400A, bunch of panels. Don puts the panel cover down, then picks it back up, and puts it back on! Then he looks at me, and says, "Go start my van, I'm gonna have a talk with that guy, if I'm not out in fifteen minutes, get out of here, and call the cops!" What? "Just... do it." He goes inside, I'm in the van. He comes out ten minutes later, and says, "Lets get out of here, I'll tell you all about it..." He said as soon as he pulled the cover off, in giant magic marker, was the word "BANKRUPTCY!". He went in, and demanded, a few days pay up front on Emergency Rates, and $1000 for misc. material in CASH, or CASHIERS CHECK to start work. And that we would leave when the money ran out! We never saw that job again!

Anyway, AtticRat sounds like this guy had every intention of not paying! Get a cow, milk it, try to put milk back into it, milk it again. Won't give, get a new cow, etc, etc.

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 06-16-2004).]