Is replacing two prong outlet with a GFCI really a solution to a non grounding outlet or just a bandaide approach?

I would rather rewire with a grounding then install a GFCI.

What do you fellows think?

Thanks
Edward

Hey, sparky, I got a hundret dollars and this busted plug. Can you fix 'er up?
I don't think there is any question that everyone would prefer to rewire with ground included but the real world doesn't work that way. I've still got 2 strings of 2 prong outlets running downstream from ungrounded GFCIs in my own house. Some day, they'll get replaced but I did all I could before we moved in. With the GFCI, they are a lot safer than they used to be.

Most of the general-use equipment being plugged into 15- and 20-ampere receptacles only have two prong attachment plugs anyway, and those that do have 3 prongs don't usually have exposed metallic or grounded parts. Everything is plastic. You really only run into issues with refrigerators and washers.

250.114 says that you can't use the GFCI method for any of these:
--------------------------------
(3) In residential occupancies:
a. Refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners
b. Clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing machines; kitchen waste disposers; information technology equipment; sump pumps and electrical aquarium equipment
c. Hand-held motor-operated tools, stationary and fixed motor-operated tools, light industrial motor-operated tools
d. Motor-operated appliances of the following types: hedge clippers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, and wet scrubbers
e. Portable handlamps

Ok Ryan nice point. Now how would you enforce this.

How would I enforce it? You act like a permit would be taken out!!

Honestly, if I were to run into this in the feild as an inspector I would give the owner the list I provided and say "here you go"! If they violated it and something bad happened it would be assumption of risk on their behalf and not negligence on mine.

Hey Ryan, in practice most of the stuff you mentioned is actually double-insulated, so it wouldn't even matter to connect it withouzt a GFI. A ground is definitely _not_ necessary for technical reasons. Where would it go with a 2-prong plug? IT equipment does need a ground, both because it often comes in metal enclosures and for static discharge. For the latter reason an ungrounded GFI is not good for this kind of equipment.

Actually most of the stuff in that is not double insulated.


I have never seen double insulated versions of the items on that list.

This is why I do not think replacing a two wire outlet with a 3 wire one is the best move.

My choice would be a GFCI breaker and leave the two wire outlets.

The GFCI breaker would help when they use a 'cheater' adapter.

Ryan, you do not pull a permit when you plug in your appliances?

Bob

iwire, a and b not, but c to d are IMHO mostly double-isolated (not necessarily all of c, only handheld). At any rate a GFI is good with that stuff.

... At this juncture,I have to pose a question.. I'd heard that GFCI's as a rule "don't like" motor loads,ie;...Refrigerator compressors,washing machine
motors,..etc,because they "see" the start up windings as a short,and result in nuisance tripping..is this true..??
Russ

From my understanding, the permitted "leakage" current from motor-operated equipment is less than the 4-6 mA setting that GFCI's are set at. There is no reason that a refrigerator or washing machine should "trip" a GFCI.

The requirement of 210.8(B)(3) is evidence of this.

406.3 (D)(3)and(4) of the 2002 NEC both seem to indicate that a GFCI outlet is suitable for replacing any non-grounding type receptacle. However, 406 (E) does reference section 250.114 in an FPN, but don't sections 3 and 4 stand alone? This is important information because say during a sale of a home an inspection report may ding an outgoing homeowner for non-grounding outlets and I'd always understood the GFCI method to be OK. Comments?

P.S. Motor loads shouldn't trip GFCIS, but my fridge in the garage did, I just didn't notice it till I smelled it.

I had clients complaining their garage fridge is tripping the GFCI.
So i had to separate the fridge from the GFCI circuit.

Ryan,
In a residential garage receptacles have to be GFCI or protected. if there is work bench then we definitely have a handheld electric drill, sometimes a small benchtop drill press, a chopsaw,
And if you have a front or a backyard receptacle it must to be GFCI protected and usually outside you plug in your motor operated garden tools.

According to 250.114 we can not use these tools where we have GFCI protection???

Edward

250.114 tells us we can not use those tools where no grounding means exists as in a old 2 wire outlet replaced with a 3 wire and GFCI protection.

From what I have read the item that trips GFCIs in older refrigerators and freezers is the defrost circuit, not the compressor.