I have a guy thats been working for me for almost 2 years. He's now a 4th year apprentice, he's completed all of his classroom time and if he ever decides to hand in his application he can take his journeymans exam. He's a nice kid with one major problem - he has a hard time getting out of bed in the morning! It might be 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there and then once every couple of months a no show.

Why do I put up with this crap you ask? Because the kid is an unbelievable electrician. His work is perfect - fast, neat, he can troubleshoot. The panels the kid makes up are so nice it's a shame to put the cover on. He also never has a problem working late if needed.

I've had talks with him, insisting he start showing up on time but to no avail. Now it seems to be causing problems with my other employees. They feel he is getting special treatment and they are right. There are days I want to can him but I don't want to bite off my nose to spite my face. I often feel I am walking fine line between being a peolple pleaser and a disciplinarian.

What are some techniques people use to get the most from their employees?

Leespark:
After 4 years.......you may 'save face' this way.

Change his 'start time' to 1/2 hr later.

If you put up with this for 4 years, and he got away with it, you may have a tough time with UI if you fire him. If he's as good as you say.....change his schedule, by 1/2 or 1 hour.

John

leespark,
If he accepts the new start time, remember to tell him up front, that you expect him to be on time, If the other employees ask why he is given a different start time, let them know you are trying to help resolve a problem, you may be asked by the other employees to give them flex hours also, so be ready to adjust.

Perhaps a "random" drug test for all the employees. May shed some light. As far as the getting up late thing...in MY personal experience, a person can be late for a 10am job just like they can be for a 6am job. The only real way I have seen, is when people grow up... and getting laid off seams to be the only way. Money speaks better then most other things. Perhaps a probationary condition set forth for any future pay increases. Like 15 minutes tardiness allowed for any 90 day period, or a future raise will not be assessed untill this condition can be met. Just some ideas. Good luck Brian p.s. I used to be aflicted with this problem untill I grew up.

Tell him to go into the "service industry"!

I usually wake up around 8am or so, call the office to check in & see what calls are "on the board".. How fast I get ready depends on how good the calls are

My boss & company as a whole are super cool about what hours we work.. Some guys LIKE getting up at 5AM... I've just never been one of them... The fact that I leave myself "on-call" pretty late helps also. Not to mention we get "premiums" on calls after 6pm & it gets even better after 8pm I've been known to take midnight-4AM calls on occasions simply because it automatically gets me the next day off! (not to mention 50% of the call total!)

I used to do the "up at the crack of dawn" thing to be on a jobsite by 6am with my old company.. I just made me feel soooo slow! I felt like I needed to get hit with a good 277V bite to even open my eyes! 2 hours longer in bed really makes THAT much difference in my day!

-Randy

Leespark, find him a wife.

Relax. Change your attitude. Announce a new company policy.
Everyone is expected to be on time. If any one is late, they will be docked for the time they are late, plus a penalty of $10 from the annual bonus. Late time may be made up by staying late, but the penalty will still be taken. Unexcused days off will be penalized by a $20 fee. A doctor's note constitute a valid excuse. An additional $500 bonus reward for perfect attendance will be given at the annual picnic to those who qualify. (The carrot and the stick.)
This way, those who do show up are rewarded, and your star performer will not be released.

LEESPARK

I was one of those who was late to work ....you werent writing about me ..were you LOL. This story is me exactly. I am now 29 years old and nolonger have the problem , what broke it is a boss who took me out to lunch and talked to me 8 years ago he told me how much I and my work was appreciated, that everything was exceptional except for the tardyness and that if it continued i would be suspended 4 a week with no pay if it changed i got a bonus 500.00 in 1 year if i was tardy or unexcused absence 1 time i lost half, 2 times no bonus, 3 times suspended. to this day i am usually early by 15-20 min load truck and prep for the day. i never ever liked or enjoyed anything over 7 am now im at work at 6 00 and was for 7 years. i have changed jobs and employers but the lesson is still there.. BTW 500 bonus ....SWEET

I lived the late-life, too. I was born late and the trend continued for a long, long time. I like a lot of the suggestions and laughed outright at the 'find him a wife' one - - nothing like adding stress and frustration for two people!

The heart-to-heart talk, the offering of (or loss of) incentives is one of the best win-win solutions.

The heart-to-heart talk can also include some discussion that gets a little deeper into the 'why' of being late. Sometimes the tardiness is an indication of lack of prior planning, over-confidence in the time & steps involved in getting from point to point (or from bed to job-site) and not just in the nick of time but conservatively with some buffer time built in for traffic, problems or even chit-chat. Start planning the night before for an early-morning obligation rather than trying to pull it all together when your mind is still snoozing.

Often, a tardy arrival can be an indication that the person doesn't want to be there though it doesn't sound likely in this case but happened all the time for me when it was a social get-together that I'd rather just skip.

Just a simple statement like, "the tardiness problem is a sign to the rest of us that we're not (or the work is not) important enough to you for you to show up on time. That mixes the signals between what you say and what you do and it leaves us/me wondering. Your work is precision so I know you understand that concept, you don't need allowances for a margin of error on your skill but maybe giving yourself a little margin for error on your arrival, say 15 minutes for shooting the breeze in the morning with the rest of us, may help us improve the precision on scheduling our day."

Either you accept it and get over it or tell him be on time or beat it. I'd go with the latter. "Change his start time" Please you have to be joking. Whats next warm his bottle for him. Good god.

Thank you Scott you expressed it well.

Did you hear a collage near us has moved the first class start time from 8 AM to 8:30 AM. The students where not getting enough sleep.

And then there is always the noise about having the public schools start later because teenagers are going to school tired.

Oh yeah move the school start time up, that will prepare them for the real world.

I often pick up the guys working with me in the company truck, they know to be there or miss the ride.

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 04-20-2004).]

Electricmanscott, I agree. I don't advocate changing the start time, it only reinforces the bad habit. Tell the guy that he's making a decision with his behavior and it's time for him to see the facts and make his choice. The world revolves around people who get stuff done early, those who don't may get left behind even if their work is a higher quality.

"Either you accept it and get over it or tell him be on time or beat it. I'd go with the latter. "Change his start time" Please you have to be joking. Whats next warm his bottle for him. Good god."
Scott,
I don't know how it is in your state, but here in NJ if we did that, we would take on heavy UI payments. If he changes his work time, and then he shows up late, then the employer can inforce the rules, and avoid the added UI expense.
We found this out the hard way, we let a guy go for this reason, he went to UI and his claim stuck because we din't inforce the rules, and let it go for a year.
We paid and paid and paid.

This is a problem I've had with a few guys once-in-a-while. Some people just have to be 10 minutes late no matter what start time is.

I'll mention it the first few times and it gets better for a week. But after a few reminders, I suspend for a few days. After being warned fairly, if you show up the next day 10 minutes late, I tell you to go back home, take a few days off and we'll talk about it on Friday (or whatever day is 4 days away)...at 8:00!

It either works or I end up getting rid of them but constant tardiness usually comes with a bunch of other problems too.

I think Buggaboo's right about it being an indication of something.

No offense meant all, but maybe it's not that his heart isn't in the work, but maybe his heart's not in working for you. Maybe he sees himself as self-employed someday or doesn't think your company is where he wants to work until retirement.

I think tardiness is rooted in respect. When he's late he's being disrespectful, whether it is due to absent-mindedness or lack of motivation.

Don't want to bum you out, just throwing possibilities out there.

The problem comes in when his actions start to affect the overall work ethic or attitudes within the company. I can understand wanting to keep a skilled craftsman with great potential, but if it starts to cause others' morale to suffer, the worst scenerio would be if the damage was done, and then this guy up leaves anyway.

I was only half kidding about finding the kid a wife. To me it seems you're describing a young fella with no major personal or financial obligations yet. He most likely goes out during the week on occasion with his buddies and stays out too late. IMHO, if he had a serious drug or alcohol problem he'd most likely be borrowing money from everyone and would be regularly broke long before payday. His grandmother would die once every other month and his debt collectors would be calling your office once a week looking for him. But, I don't think this is the case here.

In the past I had a standing rule for everyone which is if you don't call when you don't come in you must take the next day off too. Repeated tardiness gets you a week off, then two, and so on. Hopefully, he'll find a nice gal to set him straight before you have to resort to all this.

Good luck, I know how frustrating it can be with a good worker.
Andy

Next time he is late send the guys off without him. When he shows up say the train left and see you tommorow. He will get the point. Most will get the hint when it hits them in the wallet.

I used to be that kid you are talking about,there wasn,t much but time that would cure me and to this day i am still sometimes that kid.i usually got kept because i could outproduce most guys and would stay late if needed.
if it is really hurting you you have to get rid of him ,but if its just a personal; thing with you i would think about it.

If I was an electrician I would be the kid you are talking about, I seem to have issues dealing with morning, but if I come in late then I stay late, or work thru lunch if there are other guys with me. My boss doesn't bust on me too much because I am the #2 tech in the company as far as knowledge base goes and I can outproduce any of the other guys I work with. I take it more as a perk, I can leave the company, go somewhere else and get 5 or 10 dollars an hour more but I am comfertable where I am and I have the perk of taking a late start if I need it. There may also be a problem with him as far as sleep patterns go, for some reason younger people produce better when they start later, it doesn't matter when they go to sleep, could be 21:00 could be 1:00am, still can't get out of bed before 7:00. I worked the best I ever have when I was working in a school, we couldn't work during the school day so we worked 14:00-22:00, that was the best three months of my work life. Just my $0.02

Jim

I hate to be so crass, but I had a crew of travellers that wanted to sit at the coffee table 'till 7:20 - 7:30, so I told 'em not to start work untill 8:00 because that was when their time started.

No more problems.

Leespark,
Being a person that is required to start at odd hours of the day and night, I reckon this.
Your guy has his priorities wrong, what's more important than your pay-check?.
I wouldn't go for Drug or Alcohol testing, but it does make you wonder why, the guy is late all the time, all -night partying?.
Not good during the working week though!.

JCooper,
finally someone who feels like me. I have no specified working hours and I'm often the last guy in, last guy out. I've never understood people who start at 6 AM and leave at 3 PM. I much rather start at nine and leave at nine.

Does this kid get paid for the full time, or is he docked for the tardiness?
15 minutes a day doesn't sound like so much, but with simple math it translates to more than 1-1/2 weeks a year.

The most proficient worker around is not worth a nickel if he's not on the jobsite.

This "I guess I'm not a morning person" crap is just that...crap. Tardiness only shows that this person figures his time is more valuable than the time of all the others combined. Allowing it only reinforces that pattern of thinking.

Trumpy's got it right. It's a case of bad priorities. (Imagine if you called a Fire Dept full of guys that couldn't get out of bed.)

You might try telling the rest of the crew that they can't start until everyone is at work (including the "problem child").
Peer pressure should make short work of it.

In response to electure,that hard assed line that you sing about not being a morning person is crap.I have had a lot of guys work for me that would be early,and have the odd guy that would show up late consistently but lots of times that late guy was the guy that I counted on.Business is still a people game and people are different and those who don,t bend end up being broke.

Electure...
I tried the "adjusting your time" thing... I went to bed earlier.. set my alarm clock earlier.. coffee... Jolt Cola... I tried hitting the sack at 8-9 pm for a while... Ya know something? I was still groggy & half asleep until at least noon! Conclusion I've come to about some people is that your body has it's own "clock" regardless of what any timepiece states... Along with the sun hitting your face in the morning, natural instincts tell you it's time to wake up! I feel refreshed & I actually get more done. There's nothing natural about waking up to an alarm clock.. Besides, Does anyone here think its a great idea to NOT be alert when working a jobsite, or worse yet.. on live systems?

-Randy

PS Electure... what time do you go to sleep on average?

PPS... Whats more important than a paycheck?
My son! 2 hours a night MINIMUM spent just focusing on him no matter what time I get home! He's not much of a morning person either

[This message has been edited by Lostazhell (edited 04-23-2004).]

I don't buy the "morning person" and "late person" stereotypes at all.

In highschool they experimented with 07:30 classes for grade 11 & 12 to deal with overcrowding. My grades went through the roof. My attention span was better in the mornings, and I only had to keep it together for 1 class after lunch (when the after lunch nap wants to kick in.) Finished up at 13:45. I was so gung-ho on the setup I picked up my girlfriend in the mornings, and got us both to class 20 mins early. I still liked to stay up late, but usually twice a week, I crashed right after dinner to make up for it.

A few years later I worked at a wrecking yard. Started out being 10-15 mins early for an 08:30 start. After one year I was scraping in the door without a second to spare. The next year I was consistently 10-20 mins late. Over the same period of time my morning habits had changed from a liesurely breakfast while reading the paper, to fly-out-of-bed-get-dressed-jump-in-truck. Consistently staying up late at this point. Tardiness was problem for everyone but the boss. He just decided he would open shop, and everyone else would put in 8 hours from when they actually rolled in.

After four years of that I was married, and started my Electrical career. Been up at 05:00 and 15 mins early for work ever since. My 2-year old makes sure that holds true on weekends too. I end up dozing on the public transit on the commute home. Now when I hang out with my buddies, they're blown away that I'm starting to conk out around 15:00; and why there's no answer when they want to call me out for a beer at 21:00. I'm only up late maybe once a week now.

I think the heavy-handed approach is best. He'll be late so long as he figures he can get away with it. Or wait for him to incur a life-changing event, like get married or reproduce

*bump


(because everyone new person here should read this thread)


Personally, I used to be late all the time for a guy I worked for for over 11 years. He kept warning me to quit being late and to come to work on time. I always said I would, and yet still came in late. I don't think it was the pimary reason he fired me, but it certainly factored into the decision, I'm sure.

I liked the peer pressure solution the best. If the rest of us are at the shop by 7:30, than you should be too. If we don't start getting paid until the guy who's always late shows up, we've got a problem.

It really comes down to this:

Would you rather have a punctual employee who screws things up, causes your jobs to fall behind, and refuses to work late? Or a mildly tardy employee who does outstanding work, ensures your jobs run ahead of schedule, and will work late without any problem, and does the best he can for you and your business? I think the answer is a no-brainer.

Of course, some will say you have a right to expect it all... well good luck with that pie in the sky thinking. A simple fact of LIFE is that you can have ANYTHING you want, but you can't have EVERYTHING. And it doesn't matter how much money or power you have, this basic law applies.

If you're in the NYC area and this kid is as good as you say, do me a favor and fire him and forward me his contact information, so we can hire him immediately. If you have or know of others like him, please do the same. In return, I'll send you a bunch of mediorce people who are always on time.

I'd much rather an employee who is more focused on the job than the clock.

The Industrial Revolution has long been over, and so to should be its antiquated thinking. Besides, life is too short to worry over insignificant details. And what about the ensuing aggrivation you might encounter with his replacment? The old saying "you know what you've got, but you don't know what you're gonna get", seems appropriate here.

Joe

"we don't start getting paid until the guy who's always late shows up, we've got a problem"
Yep! with the laws of most states... If the rest are on time you cant dock thier pay. Pay the way you bill - by the hour.

Quote:Perhaps a "random" drug test for all the employees.

Not that I'm a drug addict but man am I ever glad to live in Canada!

I have never been a morning person.

Some people are morning people, some are not.
Some people can be changed, some cannot. I am definitely in the latter category. For those people like me, it is best not to fight the clock, but to work with it.


I am a night owl, and have been a night owl for as long as I can remember. It does not matter how early I get up, or how many cups of coffee I drink, I simply do not function well early in the morning.

It's just a fact of my life, and it's not something that can be changed, it's just the way my internal clock is wired. It has always been that way, and it will always be that way.

Alarm clocks may get me out of bed, and on the road, but they can not make me coherent, or improve my thought processes. The earlier I have to wake up, the longer it takes before I am coherent. I may barely make it to work at 8, but you probably will not be able to get a coherent answer until 9. If you want me at work at 7, I might make it, but you still will not get an coherent answer until 9. Before that time, you should consider me a zombie, and if you pour too much coffee into me, a tense, wired, irritable zombie. I may be able to function on autopilot, but that is about it.


While you may sometimes find me awake at 5 or 6am, it usually means that I have been up all night working on something, and have not yet been to bed. You should not count on me remaining productive for the rest of the day without sleep.


Around here, they start the high schools at something like 7 or 7:30, which I consider absurdly early. When I was in high school, we used to start at 8, which I also considered much too early. My first class of the day was always a loss, as I was never coherent that early in the morning.

The problem is this type of behavior does not stop at being a few minutes late, it grows a little bit over time and it establishes a precedent. It also erodes your leadership abilities, which is a subtle thing that can cost you a lot more than one good electrician.

I have had to let some really good guys go for this very reason. Generally when there is lots of work and any help, let alone good help is hard to find, I tolerate some of it but when things slow down they are the first to get the axe.

Just recently I had a good apprentice on one of my jobs that was doing this to me, after a few weeks I notice 3 other guys on that same job were doing it and moral was apathetic. Good apprentices are hard to find, but losing 10-15 minutes a day for 4 guys and hard feelings among the crew cost money and I did not like where this trend was going, so I fired him. Nobody has been late and moral improved on that job since then.

Good employees like to know what the rules are and know they are enforced fairly and evenly and in an odd sense it’s really good for moral.

No-show No-call is an automatic termination if unless they are in the hospital, or jail.

The bonus solution was interesting; I may look into something like it. Incentives can be a better motivator than, consequences, but I also like the idea of sending them home for the day if they show up late, which really hurts a man in the wallet

One of my competitors has a very strict policy that they have to sign off on the day they are hired. If you are late more than 3 times or miss any more than 2 days in any 30-day period, the time keeping software will automatically generate a termination slip. He goes through a lot of electricians.

------------------------
Techie,

Why don’t you find a job working 3rd shift somewhere, they love night owls like you for this kind of work?


[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-01-2006).]

Can't wake up? Not a 'morning person?' Can't adjust to a different schedule?

And folks wonder why military vets are sought-after employees!

I have a brother-in-law who claims he's not a "morning person". Always late. If he's supposed to be at work at 6AM he might be there at 6:20. If he's supposed to be there at 7:30 he'll be there around 7:50. He had job where the start time was anywhere from 9-11 AM and he was chronically 10-20 minutes late. Since he wasn't a "morning person" he tried a second shift job that started at 2:30PM. uess what? Still 10-20 minutes late until he was fired. So he decided he wasn't an "afternoon person" either and got a 3rd shift job that started at 10:30PM. He was on time for a whole 2 months before he fell back in to being 10-20 minutes late EVERY DAY. His problem isn't that he's not a "morning person", an "afternoon person" or a "3rd shift person". His problem is he's not a "work person". People, like my brother-in-law, who don't think being late is a big deal are either stupid or extremely self-centered. At his factory job he was part of an assembly line that couldn't start until he was there. Everyone else got their hourly rate but they had to struggle to hit their piece rate because of waiting on him. He cost the rest of them hundreds of dollars a week in lost piece rate bonuses plus they had to all work harder to accomplish their daily production. At his afternoon job as a security guard at another factory the dayshift guard he was supposed to relieve coudn't leave until he got there and that made him late to pick up his kids at school. His 3rd shift job was another factory production job where everyone had to stand around and wait on him or bust their hump covering his job until he got there. Lost productive time costs money and someone has to pay for it somewhere somehow.

I can understand why being late is a problem. One of my jobs is scooping ice cream, and we never know what business will be like for the day, so I make it a habit to try and be early (5 or 10 minutes, occasionally more) so that there is never a shortage of help if we get hit really hard. Applying this to the starting issue, I second the idea of peer pressure. Have the people working with him explain to him how hard it is to keep up on work when he's not helping.

"Can't wake up? Not a 'morning person?' Can't adjust to a different schedule?"


This banter makes me rather sick.

Are these people for real?

I have no problems getting to work on-time, it's the ride from the job back to the shop without pay that REALLY bothers me.

Paying for windshield time bothers me.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said that in this thread.

It's way off-topic for the "Always Late" thread.

Reno, As a former Air Force vet, I agree with that statement. But, I must add the following:

I too am very much a night person. So much so that during my first tour of active duty, I was fortunate enough to work for a branch chief who understood and took care of his personnel. He saw within my first month of duty that I was not suitable for day shift (0700-1600) and transferred me over to swing shift (1600-2400).

End result? My productivity went way up, I earned several high ratings on my performance evals and everyone was happy. Oh, BTW, I was a bomb loader.


I agree with Joe. A person's work performance and productivity is of far greater importance to me than whether or not they get to a job site slightly late. (15 minutes or less.)

Generally speaking though, in my line of work being punctual is not usually a problem. The examples in Fred's post are valid ones and in that case I would agree with him.

I currently contract with a gentlemean who used to ride me about being to the job precisely at 8am. I told him in no uncertain terms that as a contractor, unless he's willing to stipulate in writing a requirement to be at the site at a given time, and any penalties for being tardy, then he hasn't any cause to complain. (Besides, HE was rarely on time either.) As long as the job is done to specifications, meeting the deadlines and performing up to standards, then I would work hours as I saw fit, but I did ensure that we agreed on a general timeframe.

Guess what? Once he adapted to this, we not only get along great but our jobs go quite smoothly and we meet our deadlines.

I was going to continue to directly answer some of the other comments made here, but instead I will summarize my input this way:

Look, one thing I hope we can agree on is that people are different, jobs and working situations are different, and the ultimate goal is to ensure that the job gets done right, on time and within budgeted costs, right?

The true marks of a great leader and well-run business are pretty much the same: adapt to the changes, in the "times", new ideas, and people management. Then you will be truly successful.

In short, there is no one size fits all answer to this dilemma. But I would tend to overlook even "chronic" tardiness of 15 mins. or less, if that person's job performance was otherwise exemplary.

I admire veterans but don't trust them with power supplies. I asked one to change out the filter caps. He got the first three in OK but C4 always seemed to blow up the supply. But seriously, I just never liked the bosses that watched the clock in the morning, yet didn't expect me to watch it in the afternoon. It never made sense to me to show up half an hour early most days to allow for the occasional time I might get stuck in traffic. I always thought that grown ups should be able to work things out to everyone's advantage. My TV Chief Engineer job was a nightmare because I had to deal with an inbound and outbound rush hour, twice a day. I worked it out with management that I would come in after morning rush and leave after the evening rush, saving me 2 hours of grief each day. We had Wednesday morning management meetings so I would go in really early for transmitter maintenance, then go to the nearby office/studio for the meeting. I convinced them to hire an intern as my assistant. I just asked him to give me an honest 8 hours. We worked out a schedule that met his college needs, allowed me the time to train him on broadcast maintenance, and gave maximum airshift coverage. Everyone benefited.

I can certainly see where promtness counts with shift or team work or to make appointments. In a job where you're transmitting 20/7 and possibly doing maintenance in the off hours, a structured 40 hours might not cut it. In another job dealing with telephone tech support, we staggered our hours to cover TV stations on both coasts. Now I remember talking to customers in Hawaii and Guam and wishing that they would ask me to hand deliver their tetrodes. Even with our overlap, I'm sure our friends on the other side of the planet would've appreciated more.

So I guess everyone needs to determine just how important that :00 or :30 is in the overall scheme of things. Going home early definately shouldn't make up for coming in late. If I have an artist creating a masterpiece panel from 7:15 to 3:45, I would count my blessings. If my guy shows up at 7:30 to bend pipe for my guy that needs it at 7:00, we gotta talk!
Joe

Lots of opinions... I just have a couple of spins to add.

I would lean toward the "suspension" idea if it were me... in that it creates an uncomfortable consequence (smaller paycheck) while also addressing the possibility that his life outside of work might be contributing to the problem -- it sends the message that he can "get his together" and then hopefully demonstrate more integrity upon returning. Bonus incentives are great if they're offered to EVERYBODY, otherwise you're really still rewarding bad behaviour since he had to screw up enough to get you to offer it in the first place.

I wouldn't assume a drug problem. There is probably alot about this guy's life you don't know... maybe he's been having a rough go of it in his personal life and that is reflecting itself in his work ethic -- or maybe it started that way and became habit the more times he heard himself described as the "late" guy in general. Labels are habit-forming.

Do you have lesser-year apprentices? Use that to your benefit by having a talk with him about setting an example. He's your star on the scene, but he's not showing up for his own party, what gives?? It smacks of low self-respect to me.

(edited for "one of those words")

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 12-02-2006).]

Our start time is a "between." Our guys start "between" 7:30AM and 8:30AM. They work 8 hours from the time they start. Haven't had a problem in 26 years. Don't remember anyone ever being "late."

This is just blowing my mind.

Anyplace I have worked you either show up on time or you get fired.


This BS about some people not being 'morning people' is just a lame excuse. I agree some people are early risers and some are late but anyone can change that if they choose to.

My wife is not a 'morning person' but she drags her rear out of bed to do the things she has to do.

I am not a 'night person' but if the job needs me at night I get myself there.

It's called RESPONSIBILITY.

Did we all forget that it's called work because it is work and they pay us because it is not always fun?

If someone absolutely can not find a way to meet their responsibilities they need to find a new job that has a different start time or flexible start times.

The thought that a company with a long established start time should change that for one person is inconceivable to me.

Bob

I should add that I understand that everyone is late sometimes but I don't believe that is what this threads about, it appears to me this thread is about repetitive lateness.

As the owner of A company I wouldn't like to have to come earlyier because he may come at this time. If i show up to organize his morning work I exspect him to come to do it on time.

This is a dilema every small (2-6 employee) shop will face, if they haven't already. At that size you are very vulnerable. You have too much work to be able to afford losing this guy. But you are not big enough to have the systems in place to efficiently replace him.

It's a tough situation....

This is an excellent point, at each of my jobs everyone meets in the morning and the day’s marching orders are handed out by the foreman. If someone is late two things happen, one you don’t know if they are late or just not showing up so you have to modify your plans, and two if they do show up you have already organized as if they would not be there. Its just plain disrespectful to your coworkers and employer.

The biggest problem I have with tardiness is it just does not stop with tardiness. It’s an attitude that, since the showing up on time rule is flexible them maybe other rules are flexible. Maybe lunch could run a little longer, maybe since its such a long walk to the parking lot we should quit 5 minutes earlier, maybe since the taco truck was late today an extra 5 minutes for break is ok… it goes on and on.

As long as the late employee is good and has a "give and take" attitude, I see no problem with it. If any of my employees (I have 3, all of whom are considerate of my schedule) are late or take an extended lunch break, etc., the time is always made up. There are always days we don't get back to the shop at exactly 4:30....4:40 or 4:45 is common. If they were late arriving they get their normal pay...if they were on time, that time gets put in the "time bank". It always balances out.

They are sought after for alot of reasons, not just for their tardiness. They are well organized, work well with others, and have high degrees of training in dealing with problems and how to adapt and overcome.
There are alot more reasons, but I am sure I would fill the server up listing them all.

I know what you meant John, I couldn't resist giving the vets an extra "ata boy". They deserve it.

Give and take may work well with 4 employees, but when you work 80 unionized employees there is only take, any discussions of flexibility result in me bending over.

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-02-2006).]

there is definitely different circumstances. With 80 union guys, you can not tolerate that. But you can also afford to fire the guy, call the hall and have another guy sent out the next day.

with a 4 man shop, you can't afford to do that for every little thing. You are at the mercy of your employees until you hit probably 10-12 men. Even then you are only a couple of disgruntled employees away from disaster...

Anyone who doubts that there are morning and non-morning people are cordially invited to try and wake me any day before 9:00. I used to work for an IT company, and They wanted me at work every morning at 7:00. I tried it for a week, and then called a meeting with my boss and told her that I just couldn't do it. I would be awake and on time, but I would feel awful for the entire day. I tried everything, going to bed as early as 7:00, caffeine, several alarm clocks, etc. I can get up, but it ain't gonna be a pretty sight, just like the work I do in the morning.

Left without an alarm clock, I will wake up naturally at about 11:00, and then be able to work well until about 2:00AM. I was running this schedule for a while, when I was doing mostly live sound reinforcement jobs. I never really had to be at work before about 4:00 in the afternoon, so it worked out well. Unfortunately, that market shrinks a lot with the cold weather.

I remember offering to let a friend of mine try to wake me up once. He came to my house at 7:00 armed with a long extension cord and a leaf blower and let himself in. He was amazed when I woke up 4 hours later and didn't remember any of it, even though I spoke to him. I am not a drug user, so please don't think that. I just have a really hard time waking up in the morning. When I was in high school, I used to use a 100db buzzer (kinda like a fire alarm, but a little different sound) and a mechanical time switch as an alarm clock. It worked, but my neighbors hated it.

[This message has been edited by napervillesoundtech (edited 12-02-2006).]

Well only you know how it is for you.

However knowing your trouble with early waking would it be wise to take a job that starts early?

Would you expect the place you work to bend around your schedule?

My only real point is this.

If you take a job that starts at 7 AM you either get there on time or find a new job.

IMO there is no third option.

Ok, now I would also have to say that the repetetive tardiness is showing a lack of respect for the employer. I used to go through spells of this when I was still a young 'prenitce. One big reason why I shaped up is... I love what I do for a living. Being on time is just a big way of showing it. Not to mention respect for my fellow electricains.

Luke

I was one of those "always late" people when I was working for the blue big box hardware store. For most of my jobs, it was a combination of low morale and high tolerance for absenteeism that made me come in late all the time. I didn't wake up on time when morale was very low (I'm not a psychiatrist, but maybe it's a subconscious thing, like not hearing the alarm, accidentally resetting it when you first wake up and not remembering doing it, etc.)

I also agree that I had a problem. What was worse is there was no policy on being late, other than 2+ hours late meant an absence. Unfortunately for me and the store, i was stuck there until a series of unfortunate events (a.k.a. I'm a crybaby) led me to just quit, not even call in and tell them that I quit. Mainly, school and work were getting the best of me.

I have a new job with a pretty set schedule. Where my old job was opening meant be there at 5AM, closing meant be there at 3PM, my new job's open/close shifts are only 90 minutes apart. Plus, the morale is alot better. Suddenly, I find myself waking up on time every day (except twice, when I forgot to set my alarm, and even then I was only 30 minutes late at the most).

Every person is different, I agree. However, having a high tolerance for lates will eventually cause a pattern. Poor morale can be a factor. In my case, it was justified, as we had to battle cut hours, unbearable workloads, and sub human treatment. However, many cases of low morale stem from an employee's personal or professional problems, not the company's. But, an employee is not only responsible for showing up on time, but KNOWING whether or not they can or can't, and TAKING the appropriate action (i.e. find a new job, try to work a different schedule, etc.)

If I was in my boss's position at the big box store, I would have fired myself. Instead of trying to work something out that I knew I couldn't, I should have looked for a new job alot sooner.

IMO, he is hired to work 480 minutes a day and I pick the minutes of the day he works.

If he can not adjust his schedule around these 480 minutes he will not have to worry about it, these minutes will be his again to find another employer who will work around his schedule.

Roger

The situation is difficult in a small shop. However, my m.o. is that I do the best I can for all my guys, and I want them to do their best for me. If they can't be on time, they are not doing their best. It would not be acceptable to me. I've got no problem with anyone being late once in a while, but every day wouldn't cut it.

I had a friend who had a habitually late employee. He finally gave the ultimatum that everyone must be on site by 7:00. Next day guy is 15 minutes late. Sends him home. Following day he is 5 minutes late. Sends him home. Third day he is 1 minute late. Sends him home. Fourth day on - guy's on time. Problem solved.

That is the route I'd take.

I used to be a foreman -- non-electrical, and my janitor was from Costa Rica. Perhaps their concept of a 7 a.m. starting time meant sometime between 7 and 8 o'clock. If he didn't show up, I would have to get his work done myself [cleaning toilets] but when he did show up, I was relieved. At least the employee should call if he is going to be late.
On the other hand, Herb told us about this guy who started arriving late. He talked with the guy and it turned out that his wife left him and he had to deliver his daughters to their various schools. Herb explained this predicament to his crew and they understood.
"guy is 15 minutes late. Sends him home. Following day he is 5 minutes late. Sends him home. This is probably the best approach. You may want to be shopping for someone else. He isn't the only super apprentice in the field. [I was the other one.]
Roger got fired this way. Mark said, You're late. I can't use you. Go home."
One time, as I was waiting for starting time, this pickup truck arrives next to me. The driver is barefoot -- probably just got out of bed and hopped in his truck. Then he put his boots on. This is cutting it closely. Shouldn't one prepare himself for the day with a figther pilot's breakfast?
My advice for the employee in this situation is to not look at the official starting time as the NEC limit. You say, "The start time is 7 a.m. and it takes me 18 minutes to drive there. So I will leave the house at 6:42." But what if you hit too many red lights or there is a neat traffic accident that you get to gawk at? So I would aim to arrive about 6 a.m. and spent the rest of the time drinking my coffee and solving my Sudoku.
~Peter