A Question to our Non-US Visitors?

Are GFCI's or GFI's (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters) required in certain locations in the Country where you live? (please tell us where you are from)

Example: In the US they are required in Bathrooms, Basements, Crawlspaces, Garages, Outside (Residences) and at Countertop outlets in Kitchens.

(Any other information you would care to provide would be appreciated)


Bill

In Sweden GFCI's are required by law to protect the whole wiring (since the first of July 2000) in all new constructed residential houses, schools, day-cares, temporary installations and things like that. Before that (since 1996) it was required in new constructed/renovated bathrooms, Garages, to protect electrical heating in floors, new installed sockets placed outside. Even sockets placed inside which could be used to feed electrical machines outside (lawn-mowers and such) should be protected. Many people however chooses to install GFCI’s in their “old houses” just to be on the safe side even if it’s not required by the code.

The development of the use of GFCIs in the U.K. is tied up with the different methods of earthing used, so if you'll forgive me rambling for a while I'll explain.

First, I should point out that we don't have combined neutral/ground busbars here; the neutral is kept separate throughout a customer's installation. Three main methods of grounding are in use.

Older wiring in many towns used armored underground service cables, with the armor securely grounded at the supply xfmr along with the neutral (Note that this is the ONLY place the neutral was grounded). The main earth busbar was linked to the armor, providing an excellent path for fault currents, and no protection beyond normal branch fuses or breakers was used. Economic constraints mean that these systems haven't been installed for many, many years, but a great many are still in use in urban areas.

In more rural areas using overhead feeds, the installation is earthed to its own ground-rod. (Again, when originally installed these systems had the neutral grounded ONLY at the xfmr.) As it's difficult (and expensive!) to get the loop impedance low enough for normal fuses to be effective, an ELCB (Earth-Leakage Circuit Breaker) is fitted to protect the whole house. More about these equivalents to your GFCI later.

The third system is called PME (Protective Multiple Earthing), and is the closest we have to the normal U.S. system. In this arrangement, the utility's neutral is grounded at regular intervals along its route, and the main earth lead from the ground busbar is connected to the neutral at the service entrance. ELCBs were not normally used in the past.

Originally, PME was used only in areas where it was very difficult to get a good ground connection, but over the last 20 years its use has spread rapidly and most of our distribution network has now been converted to PME. Many houses wired on rural systems before PME still use separate ground rods and ELCBs, because PME necessitates stricter bonding requirements.

Continued next message.....

Continued.....

The old ELCB came in two types: Voltage-operated and current-operated. For economy, most residences using an ELCB used the voltage type.

With this system the main grounding lead didn't go directly to the rod, but through a solenoid coil in the ELCB. The characteristics were such that the breaker would trip before the potential on the ground wiring of the house could exceed 40 to 50 volts. Voltage ELCBs were installed up until about the early 1970s. They're now considered obsolete, but many are still in use.

The more sophisticated current-balance ELCB operates like the GFCI, but where used in the past they were normally quite low sensitivity types compared to today. For example, my 1966 edition of the IEE Regs. specifies that a sensitivity greater than 500mA is not considered necessary except in special circumstances. Anywhere which had such high ground resistance values that a 500mA ELCB wouldn't trip would most likely have been supplied by a PME system and therefore ELCBs wouldn't be necessary.

During the last 20 years or so, earth-leakage protection has gradually increased. The current-operated ELCB got renamed twice: First it became an RCCB (Residual Current Circuit Breaker) and quite recently it was changed to RCD (Residual Current Device).

Sensitivities increased to 100mA and it has become increasingly common for an ELCB/RCCB/RCD to be fitted even when not required by IEE Regs. (such as where PME is used). Some people now use a 30mA unit to protect the whole house.

As far as the "Regs." go (not actually a legal requirement for residential, remember, but usually followed) the current edition works around specified "disconnection" times for clearing a ground fault. These are 5 seconds for lights and other fixed appliances, and 0.4 sec. for outlets which may be used to feed handheld devices. If the loop impedance is too great for a normal fuse or C/B to clear an earth fault within these times then an RCD is required.

In practice, this still usually means that no RCD is needed on PME or older armor-earthed systems, but is where a ground-rod is used.

Although not necessary for compliance, the IEE now "suggests" that a 30mA RCD be used for all kitchen outlets, outdoor sockets, and other outlets "likely to be used to feed outdoor equipment" (e.g. hedge trimmers).

Bathrooms are considered a special case by the IEE. More on that next time.

Sorry to go on so long, but you did ask for details!

Bill:

in Canada we must also use GFCIs in
unfinished basements
outside receptacles
kitchen counter tops
bathrooms
garages
crawl spaces
anywhere within 1.5 meters of water sources or surfaces that commonly get wet
also i went to a code seminar in 2000 held by our inspectors where they said the CEC,NEC and Europe would eventually have the basically the same code,have you herd this?

Hello Frank,

We've been seeing a degree of international standardization here for about 30 years. It started in Britain in 1970 with the adoption of a common European color code for certain wiring and a change to standardized metric cable sizes.

When the 1981 edition of our IEE Wiring Regulations came out, the format was very different to that used previously, as it was completely re-written to an agreed common European layout (or so I've been informed). The new layout is much harder to follow than the old one was!

The trend toward European standardization has progressed rapidly in recent years. We're seeing our old circuit breaker rating of 5, 15 and 30A disappearing in favor of the common European ratings of 6, 16 and 32A, for example, and main switches aren't just marked "On" and "Off" anymore but also carry the European "1" and "0" symbols.

I've also heard that the IEC's aim is the whole world using the same common standard, but I think they'll have a tough time reconciling European and North American wiring practices, which are quite different in many respects.

Paul,

Thanks for the Details.
It sounds like a service Electrician over there might have his hands full diagnosing things. And, on the older systems He could really be under pressure to find and repair faults if whole systems are going down because of it.

Does all the excess current flowing through the Earth create any particular problems? Do (does?) Cattle wear rubber shoes over there?

Bill

Kent,

Do you have a Neutral to Ground connection at each Building? Or is it kept separate as in one of the systems that Pauluk describes? Do you have mandatory Codes or 'Regs' that must be followed and do Electricians have to be Licensed or Certified over there?

Sorry for all the Questions, just trying to get a picture of things over there.

Bill

Frank,

Thanks for responding. Your (Canadian) GFCI requirements sound similar to ours. I assume that we are also using similar types of Electrical systems and devices. I've not heard plans of a common code between Us, but it sounds like it could be down the road somewhere.

Bill

Bill,

The problem of a ground-fault taking out the supply to everything is probably the biggest drawback of the whole-house ELCB.
Some new systems are now using a "split-load consumer unit" with the RCD/GFI protecting most circuits but pre-GFI circuits for lights, and sometimes for things such as fridgs and freezers.

Obviously where a GFI is required for all circuits (i.e. most buildings with their own ground rod) the only way to implement a split-load system is to use two separate GFIs. Easy enough to install, but not cheap.

The biggest problem with stray ground currents was/is with the older voltage-type ELCB and parallel earth paths desensitizing the device. For example, the water pipes in the house would be conneced to the house ground wiring, so it was important to install the ground rod far enough away that its ground resistance gradient didn't overlap with that of any buried water service pipe.

Another problem where houses are close (quite common in our relatively crowded land) is that a ground fault on one house could trip the ELCB on a neighboring house if the two ground rods were too close.

Fortunately, these problems are gradually disappearing as the older type ELCBs are taken out of service.

Paul,

Sheesh!
Sounds like a troubleshooter could have his hands full over there! It's enough to even make him drink warm beer! (kidding)

Bill

Hi Paul,
First, I should point out that we don't have combined neutral/ground busbars here; the neutral is kept separate throughout a customer's installation

This, in itself, is the root of much ado here.

This is facinating!

Sparky,

Where ya been Bub?

Don't We have common Neutral/Grounding Busbar/Terminal Strip at a typical service?

Bill

Hi Bill..
been on vacation, mess machine is full of pleading and/or cursing customers.

Don't We have common Neutral/Grounding Busbar/Terminal Strip at a typical service?

yes we do, and all the problems that go along with it, which they ( in the UK) avoid. As I understand it, there have been some interesting aurguments, and even ROP's to apply thier system of N & G isolation starting at the X-former on in...

Sparky,

You seem to have told Pauluk that We didn't have this common connection.

Yes, the voltage-type ELCBs can certainly throw one a few curves. I just went to quote for a job this morning and saw one of these. I'll be advising the customer to let me replace it with the current-operated (i.e. GFI) type, but at a cost of 70 pounds (about $100) plus 17.5% tax I won't be surprised if he refuses.

Another problem with these devices crops up for radio enthusiasts such as myself. Because the house ground doesn't go directly to the ground rod but via the large inductance of the tripping coil, the house earth wiring can carry quite a lot of high-frequency noise, particularly now that computer equipment with its high leakage filters is so common.

Never mind that warm beer, just send me some of that nice American drink from the banks of the Mississippi..!

Paul,

17.5% Tax?
Whoa!! sounds like time for a 'Tea Party' if you know what I mean!

Bill

hmmm,
I've messed up here!
Paul, could you please review the N & G of your system and the ELCB application ?

I know exactly what you mean, and I agree with you completely! The 17.5% VAT (sales tax) applies to almost everything, except a few exempt items such as food, books, children's clothes, etc.)

And you really don't want to know how much we have to pay for gasoline.....

It happens to the best of us. Re-reading the thread, it looks as though some quotes got attributed to the wrong person at one point. Let's try and straighten things out:

In our main panels there are ALWAYS separate neutral and ground busbars/strips with no link between them. There are three distinct grounding methods still in use, depending upon the type of distribution network.

1. Armored underground feeds, found on older services in towns. The ground busbar is bonded to the armor of the supply cable, which in turn is grounded at the utility's xfmr. The incoming neutral goes ONLY to the neutral busbar, there is no N-to-G link on the customer's premises & no ground rod is needed. ELCBs were NOT fitted as standard. (Note: When installed, these town systems had the neutral grounded ONLY at the xfmr star-point.)

2. Overhead twin lines. Standard service for decades in rural areas. Again, incoming neutral goes ONLY to the neutral busbar and there is no N-G link. The house ground is provided by a local ground rod, and because of the resultant high loop impedance, an ELCB was/is almost always used. (As above, originally the only ground on the neutral was at the utility's xfmr.)

3. PME (Protective Multiple Earthing). Used since the 1930s in some rural areas, with overhead feeds. This is the only system with a N-G link at the house. The neutral & ground are still separate at the main panel, but instead of the main grounding lead running to cable armor or a gnd-rod, it is bonded to the incoming neutral AT THE SERVICE BLOCK. This is located before the meter, and is the only point of contact between N & G. No separate rod or ELCB is needed. (With PME the utility co. has ground rods on their neutral along its route at regular intervals.)

When reading this, keep in mind that compared to U.S. residential service we tend to use a smaller quantity of larger xfmrs to feed a given number of homes.

Since the 1980s, most of the LV distribution networks have been converted to allow PME operation, but many of the houses retain their original grounding method.

Does this help, or have I made it worse?

I should be glad if we had 17%. We have a income tax at 32% and VAT at 25. We pay 10 Swedish Crows (One dollar) for a quart of gas.

Kent,

Our Income tax is somewhat similar (rates vary according to income and deductions) but Sales tax in NY is 8.5% and some States have none at all.

Bill

Frank, What part of Canada are you from? I am from Alberta and the only places GFI's are used is 1.Bathroom receptacles and 2.Outside receptacles,except on detatched outbuildings.
Split receptacles are used on kitchen counter tops.

As a supporter of socialized medicine, I would love to pay an additional 9.25% sales tax and not have to pay medical insurance premiums to a medical system that is set up for the benefit of insurance companies, lawyers, pharmecutical companies, private hospitals and doctors. In this country, if you are not fortunate enough to have access to a good insurance policy by virtue of a company group plan or being independently wealthy, your inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness is extremely hampered if your genes, accidents, or the pollution created by our general lifestyle and big business's quest for bigger profits, create health problems for you.

Problem is, with the government leaders and government employees we currently accept, there is no way we will ever get a good return on anything we pay for in taxes.

American are dying at younger ages and in greater numbers per capita than people in Holland and England. I really am considering moving to Holland. There the cities are designed for people and not cars. They look at the idea of transportation from the perspective of moving people easily or allowing people to move easily, not focusing on the automobile drivers as the group to appease. If it was easier to travel in this country by train and bus, the average person could get around at a good bit less cost than having to maintain a car. Instead of spending billions of dollars to widen crowded roads, put that money in mass transit so people could get out of the traffic jams and ride in unstressful comfort. The crowding of the roads would then take care of itself. Also if the price of gas were allowed to get to the levels in Europe, the demand for good mass transit would create systems in most metropolitan and populous rural areas as good as in Washington DC and polution in major metropolitan areas would not be as big a problem.

Well, that is my soapbox tirade for the day. Good health to all.

Oh, one more thing. The national average wage for an electrician in Holland is $30 US per hour. One guy I talked to over there was making $40 as an electrician and he thought that was the average.

You didn't mention that he get 40 days of paid vacation per annum also.

Hmm, my remark about 17.5% sales tax very nearly has started another revolution!

Kent, I knew your VAT was up around 20 to 25%. I think it's called MOM in Sweden - Is that right?

Even over in Ireland the standard rate is 20%, but at least they have a reduced 12.5% rate which applies to a lot of big things, like house repairs. They also have quite a few other tax breaks, and even though their gasoline is still expensive by American standards, it's considerably cheaper than here. The only VAT/sales tax concession we have is domestic fuel (electricity included) which is only taxed at 5% at the moment.

The Scandinavian countries used to be much more expensive than England for gas, but we've caught up with them. Converted to American, regular unleaded works out about $4.50 per gallon at the moment. During the fuel crisis earlier in the year it hit $5 - Yep, FIVE DOLLARS A GALLON.

By the way, although our National Health Service is "free" in as much as you won't be sent a bill, it still has to be paid for, and on top of income tax there's a "National Insurance" contribution for the NHS and other social security benefits.

And while $30 an hour sounds great, you have to figure in the taxes & your living expenses, which I understand are very high in Holland.

Most everyday items here in England, from food, to clothes, to tools, (not to mention houses) are more expensive than in America.
I know public transport is good in many European countries (it certainly is in France), but it's become a joke in the U.K. Expensive,unreiable, and in most rural areas just plain non-existent.

Oh well.. Aplogies for my off-topic rambling.

Well that sounds like it evens out a bit.

Paul,

All interesting stuff, no apologies necessary. No demerits issued here for the occassional ramble
It makes for a better understanding of each other and the issues involved.

Bill

Pauluk

Yes,it's called moms. Have you ever visited Sweden?

No, I've never been to anywhere in Scandinavia, but Sweden, Norway, and Finland always look very attractive to me.
I love lakes, forests, mountains, etc., so I could quite happily live in a nice log home out in the wilds.

The only countries I've ever been to (in addition to the U.K. and U.S.A. of course) are France, Spain, and the Republic of Ireland. Have you ever been to England or America?

How many of you other guys here have visited anywhere in Britain/Europe? Just curious.....

Bill:

Your original question for this topic was about GFCIs for bathroom outlets, etc. With all the details of our grounding and whole-house ELCBs, I haven't yet gotten around to explaining bathroom outlets here.

This is one area where our IEE Regs. have been very specific for many years. Normal convenience outlets - whether GFCI protected or not - are not allowed in a bathroom. Period.

The only socket (receptacle) permitted is one intended for feeding an electric razor. These are non-grounding sockets designed to take a plug with two round pins. The plug is actually our old ungrounded 5-amp type which was widely used before the introduction of the new universal 13A plug (and continued to be used long after).

The razor outlet unit contains a 1:1 isolation transformer, providing the standard 240V but with no ground reference. In many cases, the xfmr and outlet are incorporated into a strip light fitted over the mirror.

Similar lights with a razor outlet but no isolation xfmr are also available. These are intended for non-bathroom use (e.g. bedroom vanity unit), but because they're much cheaper it's not at all unusual to find them in bathrooms anyway.

With the "Regs." not being legally binding and no inspections, violations are not uncommon.

Do your countrywomen have blow dryers (handheld hair dryers)?

Using blow dryers and hair curling irons in the bathroom is pretty much the norm in the USA.


[This message has been edited by Dspark (edited 08-22-2001).]

Sure they do, it's just that according to the Institute of Electical Engineers they have no business to be using them in a bathroom! I'm sure the womenfolk would reply that the IEE is obviously all male!

If our girls (or guys for that matter) want to use such things in the bathroom, they generally just plug an extension cord into an outlet in the hallway or an adjacent room (thus defeating the whole purpose of the IEE ban on bathroom outlets).

Of course, in bathrooms fitted with the "incorrect" razor outlets many folk just change the plug on the dryer to fit. It won't work on the proper xfmr types though, because they're usually rated at about 30VA max. and incorporate a thermal overload cut-out.

>just plug an extension cord into an outlet in the hallway or an adjacent room

Run a blow dryer off an extension cord, do you?


What the minimum gage for an extension cord over there?

hmmm, some hardline REG's over there!

what purpose does the 1:1 iso-x-former serve?

Dspark:
It's possible to buy ready-made extensions using 0.75 sq. mm conductors for light use, but most store-bought types are medium-duty using 1 sq. mm, which is just slightly larger than #18 (we don't use AWG). These are generally fitted with a 5A fuse in the plug.

Heavier extensions are 1.5 sq. mm, which is about 15% larger than #16. Remember that everything here is 240V, not 120, so it's only half as much current for the same amount of power.

Sparky:
The 1:1 xfmr is intended to remove any reference to ground from the razor supply. Remember that our "hot" line is 240V to ground. The secondary is completely isolated from both the primary and from ground, so im theory there's no path for shock current even if someone conacts one side of the razor wiring.

I think the Regs. are in danger of being too strict on this. Which is better: A bathroom outlet suitably placed away from the tub and protected by a sensitive 10mA GFI, or a trailing extension which may be plugged into a outlet with no GFI protection at all?

>what purpose does the 1:1 iso-x-former serve?

It is an ungrounded SDS. The only path for shock is between the two conductors themselves. So short of chewing on the cable, it is pretty safe.

Secondly, the transformer has a high impedance so not much fault current is available (125 mA as stated).

Another point is that some razor outlets have a socket will accept not only our old-style 5A plug, but also the Continental plug (similar, but with thinner pins spaced farher apart) and the Australian plug (flat blades each angled outward at 45 degrees).

Some types (especially favored in the big hotels) have a tapped secondary on the xfmr and a separate 110V outlet which will accept the Continetal plug (still used for 110 to 127V in some countries or a standard NEMA U.S. plug.