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Please comment on the Liability/Safety concerns for the following tasks, and whether they should be performed by Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians.

Nailing nonmetallic (plastic) boxes and screwing metal boxes to metal studs.

Drilling wooden studs or punching metal studs for raceways or Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex.)

Pulling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable (Romex).

Hanging panelboard cabinets (cans.)

Moving electrical equipment, materials and tools.

Hanging temporary lighting with cord cap end.

Installing cable connectors to metal boxes

Installing equipment bonding (pigtails) in boxes.

Stapling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex) to wooden studs.

Installing PVC (RNMC) in trenches.

Unboxing lighting fixtures.

Setting and securing fixtures (lights) in ceiling grids.

Installing seismic wires, and earthquake clips for lay in fixtures.

Nailing recessed lights to joists.
I wouldn’t say license or no license is necessarily a criteria for the tasks listed. I think it is more a matter of experience. Obviously a licensed electrician implies experience, but I know unlicensed electricians that have been doing those types of tasks for 10 plus years.

I would like to see most, if not all of those tasks under supervision of a licensed electrician. How close the supervision would depend on how competent the installer is.
Posted By: DougW Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/05/04 09:21 PM
I agree with jps1006 - It depends on the installer. I've also seen unlicensed guys who can do better jobs overall than some "ticket holders" I've followed up on.

My 14 y.o. son knows about unboxing fixtures, and installing connectors. He can also cut EMT to length, and properly ream the ends - things I've seen guys older than me fudge.
In my opinion, electrical work should be done by qualified electricians.
I realize that some jurisdictions do not require a license, but the electricians doing the work should be qualified, or under the direct supervision of a qualified electrician.
Posted By: hbiss Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/06/04 12:52 AM
In many if not most jurisdictions this work is commonly done by unlicensed helpers or mechanics under the supervision of a licensed journeyman who might not even be on the job all the time. Why do people assume that every electrical "worker" is licensed or needs to be?

-Hal

[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited 03-05-2004).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/06/04 01:16 AM
I'd have to go along with jps1006 and Doug.
As long as you know how to do these tasks properly there shouldn't be a problem.
And it is also true, there are Tradespeople out there that regularly muck up the simplest of tasks, just depends on how well you were trained in the first place.
Joe,
Quote
Nailing recessed lights to joists.
Is this true?. [Linked Image]
Over here we have to keep them as far as possible, away from combustable materials.
Joe,

As most of the replies said, most electricians that take pride in their work(License or not) will try to do the best job that they can when doing electrical work. There are people out there that don't care about the quality of the work, they just want to get in and out of the job as soon as they can. They will grap their money and run.
One of the big differences between license and unlicensed people is the fact that the guys with the license have insurance and bonds. (Here in NJ at least)
That would at least give the homeowner some protection from sloopy installers
Installing any electrical to ,other than your own house,must be performed by a licenced journeyman,suprevising or an apprentice working under a licenced electrician.That is what qualified means in Oregon.
My answer to your questions

Nailing nonmetallic (plastic) boxes and screwing metal boxes to metal studs.

Drilling wooden studs or punching metal studs for raceways or Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex.)
Moving electrical equipment, materials and tools
Unboxing lighting fixtures

Done by anyone but mostly those starting out in the trade. Shown how to and supervised by the journeyman on the job

The rest belong to the electrician and thier directly supervised apprentices.

I also have seen and have employed those are ere good working electricians who have never held a license. Just supervise them as you would any one else who has shown they can be trusted to do the work correctly.

JMHO
I posted this message for a friend who is an instructor of electricians, and he is concerned about a few items that only a few of you captured.

I will ask him to take over here and explain his problem with the local issues related to the question.

Personally, I see this as a threat to our industry, and to the time we as qualified electricians spent in the field and in an apprenticeship.
Posted By: LK Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/06/04 03:46 AM
"Hanging temporary lighting with cord cap end."

This task if not supervised, can become a hazzard.
Will the untrained check the connections before installation.
Check the lamp type required.
Install string with proper support
Consider the load if multiple strings are used.
Posted By: CRW Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/06/04 03:58 AM
Speaking of temp lights, have any of you put temp incandescent lights, the real big lamps, on 277V circuits? Big mistake for the other tradesman who decides to replace a burnt out one with a regular 120v.
... I gotta go with the general consensus here,and say it depends on the proficiency of the installer..(supervised of course..)because I've seen alot of "butchers" out there that hold a licence, but don't give a hoot and a holler about how,or what they're doing...Makes me sick sometimes [Linked Image]... Thats OK,.. I'll never lower my standards,and when I go home,I'm proud of what I've done..Big money,or peanuts,...the workmanship is the same... in my opinion!! [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
AR
This issue gets my blood boiling. Unlicensed usally mean uninsured, unqualified. Here in Pa unlicensed is the norm. The state has no requiements local municipalities only(and not very many). So everybody has an uncle, bro., friend that was/is/knows electrical. Most carry no insurance. People seem to be of the mindset that if it works it must be right. Even much of my compitition are unqualified. Recently came upon 3 control relays for exterior lighting, cramed in a 6x6x4 box. 3 separate circuits 1 neutral all#10, single phase. Then #14-3rx to the switch 1 wire for each relay, use the 15a lighting circiut as control feed. uh oh we need a neutral lets see we can use this here # 10. Needless to say it works most of the time. The relays hang up sometimes. I think the heat. They have been OK since I removed the cover.Waiting for weather to correct this. I must mention this is a 5300sqft home all the bells and whistles. (200a Service thats another story)

Ob

[This message has been edited by Obsaleet (edited 03-06-2004).]
Joe,
Yes the thing you mentioned are things I did as an apprentice directly under a LICENSED journeyman. He would check eveything I did. As I gained his confidence he let me do more.

Ob
I'd have to say that there's quite a difference in safety to the installer between punching holes in metal studs and drilling out wood.
Punching metal I don't see as a problem, but as anybody who's ever caught a 16d or 20dnail with an auger and a Hole-hawg or right angle drill can attest, it can really put a hurt on you.
I'd think the wood drilling would be better left to someone that's got the experience to know where the unseen nails are (usually) located...S
Posted By: iwire Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/06/04 02:17 PM
How exactly does one become experienced with out doing the task? hmmmmmm.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/06/04 06:33 PM
I don't see a problem with anyone carrying out these tasks so long as it's done under the guidance and supervision of someone suitably qualified.

As has been said above, the degree of supervision necessary depends very much upon the skills and knowledge of the person concerned.

Quote
How exactly does one become experienced with out doing the task?
An excellent point. We all had to start somewhere.
What is the definition of supervised. The company I used to work for sent, on average, 20 two-man crews out to do new residential wiring. Neither had a license. They had three supervisors that were licensed to check on them and do estimating for the service department. I seriously doubt that every crew was checked everyday. On the commercial side, they had a crew leader that ran the job and I think very few of them were licensed.
Here in the Carolinas you aren't getting a license to be an electrician, you get a license to be an electrical contractor. As a licensed electrical I don't like the situation because it tends to drive down prices, but that's the way it is. It is, however, better than where I used to live (KY) no license no inspection required.
Posted By: LK Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/06/04 08:38 PM
"Personally, I see this as a threat to our industry, and to the time we as qualified electricians spent in the field and in an apprenticeship"

This is the issue, time spent learning the trade. Licensed or not, the amount and quality of proper training is the real concern.
An apprentace should be under supervision of a Master or licensed electrician. How close the supervision, will depend on how competent for the task the installer is.
Licenses are issued to those who have the proper level of training, and apprentances are trained by these master electricians.
Yes, everyone has to start somewhere and that is as an apprentance.
For my company I follow our state law. It requires an on the job direct supervisor for up to a max of 3 apprentices. A licensed journeynam or master in the same work area and able to see what the apprentices are doing is how I and most of the inspectors enforce this.
Of course as an apprentice gains experience and shows greater abilities, the less close supervision is needed.
I am a firm believer in training.
It is part of our job as journeymen and master electricians.
Posted By: crash Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/07/04 04:06 AM
Drilling holes in wooden studs or punching metal studs. I would think that this is a job that could also be done by a journeyman or an apprentice plumber. Nailing or screwing boxes to a stud might be able to be done by a journeyman or an apprentice carpenter. Some of these jobs don't require a knowledge of electricity, but they all require a skill. This skill might be included in other trades but all the skills in the list are included in the electrical trade. These skill requiring jobs have to be done by competant or supervised individuals (journeyman electricians or apprentices). I have observed every single last one on these jobs messed up at some point in my career, because the job was being done by someone who was not properly trained.
No workers comp. insurance or proper liabilty insurance to perform electrical work !!!!!
Posted By: DougW Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/07/04 07:14 AM
Trumpy-

I think Joe was referring to nailing the expandable supports for said can lights to joists... An if you're using IC rated cans, even the outer shell touchiong shouldn't pose a problem...

http://www.cooperlighting.com/searc...;app=Recessed+Downlight&lightsource=

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 03-07-2004).]
Thank-you Joe for posting this discussion topic for me.

Thanks to all of you out there who are participating in this discussion.

My concerns are as follows. As licensed electricians we are required to have ongoing NEC related training in order to retain our license. This tends to keep us focused on the safety aspects involved for the installation of wiring for heat power and light. The practical safeguarding of persons and property is always to be our main focus when installing electrical systems. There is an accountability factor for those of us that are licensed that isn't present with the unlicensed installers.(The ongoing required NEC related training.)

Licensure can only be acheived through the required amount of industry related experience and/or training and testing.

Other than the electrical inspector (which might be hit and miss)what accountability can we depend on for the unlicensed installer?

The liability to the master electrician that is hiring laborers to do much of this work should be a factor to consider.

Most of the items on this list are addressed in the NEC and have safety considerations that need to be adhered to during the installation. Are we to depend on an inspector or a busy master electrician to directly supervise and catch any problems with the installation that the untrained laborer may have missed?

My opinion is that we need licensed electricians or State approved apprentices under direct supervision of licensed electricians performing the wiring methods covered by the NEC.

The safety of the public and the protection of persons and property should be our main focus. In my opinion we better achieve this through the accountability process of licensure and ongoing training.

I look forward to more dialoge on this topic

[This message has been edited by AU miner (edited 03-07-2004).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/07/04 08:21 PM
Welcome AU miner. [Linked Image]

I only have a couple of things I can add to your post.

It sounds to me like you are from the New England Area as what you describe is what we in this area are required to do.

The fact is in many areas of the country there is no licensing or less stringent licensing then around my area (MA).

None of this is directly an NEC issue, licensing is the domain of the states and or local governments.

I am happy to work in states with mandated licensing and more recently registered apprentices.

That said it certainly can get cloudy even here with what should and should not be done by non electricians and apprentices.

Can I hire a labor to drill all the holes to put my wires through.

No? well I hire outside contractors all the time to core cement decks for me to run pipes through.

After the laborer drills all the holes to pull the wires through why can't they pull the cables from point to point and then I have apprentices cut them into boxes.

I get to jobs quite often that the site contractor has run the underground electrical pipes on the site.

Is that right?

My only point here is there is not a black and white answer to what must be done by whom.

And this is in an area that has licensing enforcement.

Bob
AUMiner (& Iwire, too)

Your lic standards seem equal to NJ, and some of your wording seems very familiar. We have the continuing ed requirements also (34 hrs now)

As to the main topic, as Bob (Iwire) said, it's a gray area here also. We have site contractors doinf trench and PIPE work, permitted and inspected most times, unless iy's a 'utility' job. As to the drilling, pulling, and other 'entry level' jobs, the apprentices usually get that work. "You need hands on to get experience". Heck, when the hole-hog catches the nail I warned you about, that is an experience many don't forget.

John
Posted By: LK Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/09/04 01:45 AM
What are the exact requirements for the additional 24 hrs. Wonder why we have more hours needed then any other NJ license.
It appears as a money making scam, rather then real targeted education, such as adding a few additional quality hours. Every vendor is offering a sales pitch for CEU, and every for profit instruction business is active in promotion of more hours. We don't need 34 hours we need an investigation. Many of our contractors are afraid to speak up for fear of being put down, to go from 10 to 34, I would sure like to hear the logic of this, other then greed.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 03-08-2004).]
I'll jump in here, I might get slammed, but I'm just telling it like it is. In my area, the only required license is for the owner of the company. I can then hire hundreds of helpers to do the work, none of whom are required to have any training. Of coarse I'm responsible for their work. This does concern me. Each of my trucks has a lead man that I trust and who's work I know and trust and each truck has a helper that is in training. I wish I could look at all the work that is being done, but I can't. I do get to 90% of the job sites and spot check, but some jobs I never even see. I recognize this as a potential problem and I am trying to come up with a solution. I'm joining the IEC for the training programs that they offer for the employees. I did recently hire an assistant to do much of my office work so I can be more on the job sites more.

Also in my state we are only required to have 4 hours of continuing ed per year and it's a joke, go pay your fee, eat the snacks or buffet, listen to a speaker and hopefully leave after 2 hours with your certificate for 4 hours.
Posted By: LK Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/09/04 04:16 AM
Electric Eagle,
Joe brought up a good topic, and what you described is the real world of contracting, you realize that everyone needs more training
and are trying to do something about it, In our state we had 10 hours of code review, of which we do every day of the week all year long. These 10 hours may be good for someone that has not been working in the business or just entering the business. For those of us that are active, 10 hours of instruction by an electrical inspector, on topics that effect safety, and inspection concerns, that will improve installations this would be a great improvement to the 10 hour requirement.
Take the extra trainning time and give more attention to those entering the field.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 03-08-2004).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/09/04 10:09 PM
Quote
I'll jump in here, I might get slammed, but I'm just telling it like it is.

I sure would not slam you for telling the truth. [Linked Image]
Gentlemen:

LK brought up the NOW 34 hours of CE in NJ, a 'big' jump from the 10 hour previous requirement. (1 HR of LAW, 9 of NEC Changes)

Yes, as a EC, the 10 was a 'pain', and the 34 is worse (aside from the 24 for AHJ + 16 for Sub-Code)........BUT

It's amazing how many EC's don't know, or pretend they don't know the LAW PART.

It's more amazing how many EC's claim "I Didn't know that changed" when the State (NJ) adopts and enforces the new edition of the NEC.

I know this first hand, as I work as a PT AHJ, so I see both sides of the fence.

The added 24 can be a burden if you go at it with that attitude. It COULD be a good experience if you give it a chance. You reap what you sow........

Now, as to the 'guys' doing the CE classes, yes they do it for a profit, why would they not?? Some of the guys make a living by doing electrical courses; contractor prep, one-on-one, inspector prep, CE, etc.

If no one makes the effort to teach, no one will be taught, and we may have to import 'sparkies' from the far east to do the job, to go along with all the 'outsorceing' that's hurting the economy.

Now, I'll get of my soap box & get back to the paperwork.

John
Posted By: LK Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/10/04 02:08 AM
John,

You noted that you see both sides, and if contractors are telling you they they don't know the laws, I can't believe additional hours will be the cure, that dog will just not hunt, no mater how many hours are added, but don't beat all the dog's.
No one will argue with additional instruction, however, vendors pitching a product in the name of education, should not fly. When I speak of for profit instruction, I am refering to all the mail pitches for CEU credits. An industry just grew overnight or was it overnight that it grew.
John, I am all for quality education, and would be the first to defend it, I also respect your views, on this issue, your exposure to both sides makes your opinion valuable.
What may be a better approach to the hours requirement, would be to add courses that are needed to better enable the contractor to excell in his area of need, it appears the law section is one such area, and i am sure that all the active inspectors know all the areas that need improvement.
I sure hope we have an inspector on the board
to make suggestions, for CEU hours. If not there should be.

You give a man the tools and a plan, he will build.


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 03-09-2004).]
Posted By: Joey D Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/10/04 02:39 AM
This is a subject I deal with at work. The guy I work for has app. out in vans by themselfs all the time.
Posted By: iwire Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/10/04 09:32 AM
Here we recently changed from 15 hrs to 15 and 5, this is once per code cycle.

15 hrs code and 5 hrs "trade related" this is open for me to choose, any OSHA, first aid, CPR, safety or electrical training course will do.

The 15 hr part is a highly structured class about code changes.

Yes I went to one and have heard of other 15 hr class's that are just time waisting BS sessions, now I know what instructor to choose.

Go to the right instructor and you can really learn the changes, I do not think many people would really go through the book on their own to learn the new changes.

I say bring on continuing ed. anything that makes me more trained keeps my wages higher, the standards in this state to get a either a Journeyman's or Masters just keep going up meaning less people are coming in and the ones that do make it are committed to the trade.

20 hrs and about $125 from me every 3 years is not much of a hardship in my opinion. [Linked Image]

I see far to many electricians that do not know the changes, I am not a inspector I work in a company with about 200 electricians and apprentices. Some of them would not pick up a code book at all if they did not have to for these class's. [Linked Image]

Time to step off my soap box. [Linked Image]

Bob
Joe, I think all of the work listed should be performed by a licensed electrician or under the direct supervision of the licensed electrician filing the applications, especially since each item is addressed in the NEC. I don't think electrical licenses should be taken casually. Usually, those who take our licenses casually are those without them. Most of us in the electrical industry are fotunate to have licensing laws in the jurisdictions where we work which provide a level of achievement, quality, and responsibility. Of course a license doesn't guarantee competence across the board, but it does substantially raise the overall quality of our trade.

When an electrical accident occurs with loss of life, watch how casual the lawyers are about licenses and supervision.

Andy
John,

Moving the CEU's from 10 to 34 hours might have something to do with the Contractor's Associations. Do you see the county contractors trade assoc. giving credit for every meeting that you attend? I felt that 10 or even 15 hours was enough time to refresh all the lic. contractors and bring them up on the new code changes. Some of the old timers would never crack open the newest additions of the newest codes when they came out.

Harold
Posted By: DougW Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/11/04 02:35 AM
Quote
Nailing nonmetallic (plastic) boxes and screwing metal boxes to metal studs.

Drilling wooden studs or punching metal studs for raceways or Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex.)

Nailing recessed lights to joists

Moving electrical equipment, materials and tools.

Unboxing lighting fixtures.

Andy (Cavo148) - I've got to (partially) disagree with you on this one.

While I'd love to see these fall under the "licensed EC required" portion (if only for the $$), as long as the person performing these tasks understands how to position the items in question, and the fact the fastening needs to be done in a workmanlike manner (meeting NEC req's about interior protrusion, etc), why couldn't an apprentice do these tasks w/o direct visual supervision?

I'll yield on the actual physical installation and connection of current carrying components, and their associated fittings (connectors, bonding pigtails, running NM, securing NM, mounting panels, etc)

I'm also willing to concede that, even with marked heights / depths and locations,[story stick thread [Linked Image]] a truly clueless App or helper might goof on the physical installation of boxes or cans.

But moving supplies?

Unboxing fixtures?

I need to directly supervise my helpers, or hire a Licensed EC to do these tasks?

Of course, I could be misunderstanding your use of "direct supervision"...

Couldn't supervision be achieved through the EC reviewing the work performed by his subordinates?

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 03-10-2004).]
Doug, I can only speak in relation to NJ State and NYC where I'm licensed and work. Ultimately, the licensed electrician filing the job is 100% responsible to see the work meets or exceeds the appropriate code. When nobody files the work, then the property owner gets the bullet in the neck.

If a laborer moves some material such as pre-cut pieces of 500kcm across the floor by dragging it over steel studding debris, is the licensee off the hook if the insulation is damaged and goes unnoticed until after it's pulled through conduit? If a GC's carpenter who has nothing to do for a moment is told to open oversized fixture boxes to free up some storage space and decides to throw out some installation warning notices, is the licensee off the hook for not following manufacturer's instructions when a fixture falls? I have seen many disputes over these very such incidents. I don't mean to say that the licensee should don pinstripes and a referee's whistle to watch over his crew, but the law says supervision is required. Unfortunately, these definitions; "supervised", "directly supervised", etc., don't become truly definitive until they reach the courts.

I think we all have an understanding of what a "licensed electrician" is, but an "unlicensed eletrician" could be the greatest electrician to have ever walked the earth and a direct descendant of Thomas Edison, or he could be the ex-rodeo clown I hired this morning, eh? BTW, nothing against rodeo clowns, some of my best friends are...well you know.

As you may be able to tell by my opinion, I've completed 24 of those 34 CE hours. I think the manufacturing industries have been brought to their knees through outsourcing and we in the service industry are next. If the law is on our side we should promote it and not let it slip into gray areas where the cost cutters lurk.

Just my opinion,
Andy

[This message has been edited by cavo148 (edited 03-11-2004).]
I don't think this is something that can be decided on the basis of specific tasks. Each situation is different; each person is different.

The responsibility lies on the license holder or senior man to teach the apprentices and helpers the correct way, the safe way, to do a job.

The responsibility is also on the helper or apprentice to understand their limitations. If they don't know how to do something, if they can't ensure the safety of their installation then it shouldn't be done, certainly not unsupervised.

A person should be judged by their abilities and their talents, not simply their title.

-John
Posted By: ayrton Re: Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians - 03/17/04 03:19 AM
Since a majority of us are electricians in the field in one way shape or form and would like to think we have skills not just aquired by anyone, would'nt the correct answer Always be YES, licensed or qualified. Arent you people sick of joeblow thinkin they are an electrician because they changed a receptacle once. This industry is becoming saturated with people who know enough to be dangerous. I think I see a new van every other day with someone thinking they are an electrician. Think about all the crap we all see in the fields from poeple who may know some thoery but who's mechanical skills or common sense are extremely lacking. I am all for a forum where poeple in the trade can talk shop and help each other out. But I see a lot of posts where just anybody is getting Free information which may be taking money out of my pocket.
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