Hi,
I would like to get some feedback from other parts of the country on this matter. For years this has been a pet peeve of mine. In our area if you see a non qualified unlicensed person doing electrical work there is no one to report it to. I have joined several electric leagues over the years but even thopugh they try to police it they really have no legal backing.
It burns me up that I have to pay a fortune in licensing and insurance and permit fees and so on and none of this money goes towards any kind of body to police our industry.
Just wondering if there are any good working systems out there?

Qualified licensed electricians who charge a customer $500 for a half hour's work create the market for other types. Get used to it Bud.

pforte,

In PA it is fact of life that unqualified and/or inexpreienced and/or untrained people will compete against you. This is due to the lack of a statewide licensing requirement.
Some local municipalities require an exam, but these are few and far between. Most locals require a $100.00 fee and proof of liability insurance (which until recently was easily available to anyone).
I live in a township in which most of the new homes sell for over $700,000 and they don't require an electrical license at all !!??

gee, and i naively thought the IAEI or maybe NFPA might catagorically qualify.... ?

~S~

Here in the Mountain State, when I do an inspection, if I discover that the work was done for a fee & the installer does not have an electricians license, I'm legally required to report that person to the State Fire Marshal.

Funny thing, the assistant state fire marshals can carry a gun, got a badge & probably have numerous laws on the books to protect them from irate citizens.

I've no badge, those special laws don't apply to me, no one has been around to issue me a sidearm. If anyone thinks I'm going to risk my health or life by turning in some potential nut case, they're mistaken. After all, the State only wants the licensing fee ($50).

pforte

while waiting for an inspectior
(we actually can get them on commercial jobs) i circled a 3x4 handyman ad in the paper i had been reading.

it stated that mr. handyman did 'all aspects' of plumbing and electrical work
(among other 'skills')

in handing it to the inspector, he laughed, and said there was nothing he could do about it...

even the fines (imposed on a commercial job to the unlicensed) here justify the crime

~S~

Well it would seem so far the problem is not just here. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that there are stiffer fines for me getting my license renewal in on time ($350.00 last year for one day late) then there are for an unlicensed contractor performing a paid service for a homeowner that could potentially cause loss of life?

Here in New Jersey, I left the job site to pick-up supplies, and when i returned the Police were ready to cuff and arrest my guys, because someone called and said that 2 guys were doing electrical work at the house and he din't see a truck. This happened three times in the past year. So your answer in New Jersey is to call the police. They told me it use to be a minor charge and now they can make it a criminal charge.

As LK said, here in NJ it is now a fourth degree crimminal offense to do electrical work if you are not a licensed electrical contractor. However if you read the letter of the law, I believe it said something like, " Pass your self off as a licensed electrical contractor." Or something like, "To anyway give the homeowner the impression that you are a lic. elec. cont." Now the loop hole IMHO would not try to tell homeowners that you are in anyway a lic. cont. and maybe you can get out of trouble that way. I have the law somewhere in my office, and I won't be going back there till Mon. but if anyone wants it, I will try to find it and post it.

This is from the Nebraska state electrical act.

81 2108. Wiring or installing; license required; exceptions; lending license prohibited.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section or in section 81 2110 or 81 2112, no person shall, for another, wire for or install electrical wiring, apparatus, or equipment unless he or she is licensed by the board as an electrical contractor, a Class B electrical contractor, a Class A master electrician, a Class B master electrician, or a fire alarm installer.

(2) Except as provided in section 81 2106, 81 2110, or 81 2112, no person shall wire for or install electrical wiring, apparatus, or equipment or supervise an apprentice electrician unless such person is licensed as a Class B journeyman electrician, a journeyman electrician, or a fire alarm installer and is employed by a Class A electrical contractor, a Class B electrical contractor, an electrical contractor, a Class A master electrician, a Class B master electrician, or a fire alarm installer. For purposes of this section, the holder of a fire alarm installer license shall only supervise those apprentices engaged in the installation of fire alarm equipment and apparatus operating at fifty volts or less.

No person licensed under the State Electrical Act may lend his or her license to any person or knowingly permit the use of such license by another.

81 2143. Violations, enumerated; penalties.

It shall be a Class I misdemeanor knowingly and willfully to commit or to order, instruct, or direct another to commit any of the following acts:

(1) To make a false statement in any license application, request for inspection, certificate, or other lawfully authorized or required form or statement provided by the State Electrical Act;

(2) To perform electrical work for another without a proper license for such work;

(3) To fail to file a request for inspection when required;

(4) To interfere with or refuse entry to an inspector lawfully engaged in the performance of his or her duties; or

(5) To fail or neglect to comply with the act or any lawful rule, regulation, or order of the board.


A class I misdemeanor in Nebraska is punishable by up to a $1000.00 fine or up to 1 year in jail or both.

We have the law on the books, now if the AHJ's, police, and distric attourney's will enforce it maybe some of these fly by niters will disappear.
i am not holding my breath waiting.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section or in section 81 2110 or 81 2112:

What does section 81 2110 and 81 2112 say?

I certainly like the way it is handled in New Jersey. Sorry that you have had to get hassled unecessarily though. I am guessing you probably don't mind so much considering at least someone is watching your back.

Elecbob
Those two sections deal with those who hold older installer or class B licenses that are no longer issued after Sep 19 1993. Those people have an option to renew thier old license and keep working as they did before or of taking the test for a fire alarm installer, journeyman or contractor. The state board also combined the contractor and master test/license at the same time. The old contractor who required a master as a qualifing employee was NOT grandfathered. Those licenses ended Dec 31 1994.

I'm an unlicensed partner in a 2 man shop.
My partner is letting his license expire in June of this year.

He was going to do it last year and I talked him into 1 more year to allow me time to get my own license.

He now has another job and lots of back problems,and hasn't been to a jobsite much in a long time. Technically,I/we could be shut down because he's not available full time.

There's no inspections/permits in a 3 or 4 county area here. Judging from others work that I see,we do some of the most code-compliant work around,and am always striving to improve on that.

This is a small place,and even when I'm lucky enough to get my own license,I don't think I'll be turning anyone in. If word got out around here that you did something like that,there could be reprucussions,maybe even tar and feathers.

Only when inspections/permits become the law locally,will things change much.


Russell

The State of Minnesota has regulation similar to what NESparky posted above (Nebraska and Minnesota have reciprocity agreements for electricians).

The enforcement of the regulations is directly proportional to the population density. . .the greater the number of people per square mile, the higher the official scrutiny.

The Idea of a permit is misunderstood, The purpose of a permit and inspection is to keep your insurance protection. If you were to have work done without permits or inspection on an insured home then chances are good you will lose your insurance protection. In case of a loss, they could give you back your premium payments and a small consideration payment of a few thousand dollars, this can vary from state to state and what insurance company you may have. So when you get that trunk slammer that tells you no permit or inspections needed to do your work, you may end up paying a very high price.

so we have the entire gambit here, from locales' where unqualified work is a criminal offense, to that where one could be tarred & feathered for pointing it out.

the focus of revenue trumping safety rears it's ugly head

the threat of insurance validation, while relevant, has no real teeth except for that which is after the fact
(i've talked to many an agent on the issue)

those of us that uphold the code without enforcement trying our hardest to be ethical tradesmen do so putting the well being of our business at stake, gambling the very food in our childrens mouths, while the IAEI holds it's 75th gala convention...fiddling ,with YOUR DUES folks, as rome burns....

yet sooner or later , just like those poor jews who marched into the ovens realizing thier fate inevitable, we will make consessions or go out of business

the invisible hand of the market thus dictates that the unethical, the unqualified flourish....the powers that be advocating this through thier silence.

Myself i suggest boycotting the IAEI ,as well as the NFPA. don't pay thier dues, don't buy thier goods, and make your position known to your local Representative that they are asleep at the wheel on the issue of safe housing , or how addressing a level playing field is mutually benifical for all concerned.

It's thier job to listen to you....

Go here to cultivate your own states e-mail list

Steve ~aka sparky~


[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 01-03-2004).]

here in my area, first time working without a license,$100.fine, secound time $500.fine and or/30 days in jail.the electrical inspector has full authority to make arrests.

Sparky,
I am just about ready to pack it in, as you noted we have to follow the good book, while others run over us. Last week I quoted wiring for an addition, the owner told me all you guys are thieves, my carpenter does electrical work and said you don,t need a permit, the electricians just put that money in their pocket. Just in case you don't know it is ok to put 12 recessed lights and 14 new recpt,s on an existing 15 amp circuit with the furnace. I should have consulted with the carpenter, he has done a lot of these jobs and never had a problem.

............YET !!!!!!!!!!! he's just been lucky !!!!!

Gee, we've seen this topic before. But don't worry - I'm sure that with all those home improvement / DIY shows on cable, we'll all be seeing completely Code compliant and Safe installs on all our service calls from now on! [donning asbestos underwear]

When I first started wiring, I did it as a "handyman". I "assisted" the homeowner in performing the wiring themselves.... Yeah, that's right.

The major difference is that I followed the code back then (just like now). The City inspector knew I was wiring my buddy's basement, and when I asked hom about it, he told me that he was less worried about my work than some of the "old time" electricians who were still following Code from the 50's. (Of course, they also knew I was going to take the license exam in the future, and didn't want to f up too badly)

People used to ask "why do you have to do it that way?", or "Gee, isn't that going to be expensive?" - I told them:

a) they were paying me a fraction of what they'd be paying a licensed electrician;
b) as a pirate, I might get tagged for not having a license - the last thing I want from a criminal or civil viewpoint is not doing the job to code on top of pirating;
c) doing it right the first time meant they wouldn't have to call me (or somebody else) back in the future, OR call the Fire Department when the loose lamp cord in their wall finally failed.

So, I guess that answer is that in our town the AHJ bases his response on the quality of work being performed.


Of course, that requires inspections....

which are based on the permit process...

which, of course, everyone is always compliant with...


[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 01-04-2004).]

fine by me DougW, and hey, if s/he's not present we can just addendum the bill as having 12 recessed & 14 receptacles on a furnace cicuit right?

heck, i work side by side the DIY'er all the time here...

there's a difference bettween 'pirating' and surviving a market basically advocated through the silent authorities that supposively work for the public's best interests isn't there?

of course, i'd LOVE for the NFPA to prove me wrong here and issue a Home Depot 101 manual in the NFPA catalog, maybe then it wouldn't grace my woodstove every month....

LK,
I'm not willing to go down w/o a fight here as my position is as hard earned as yours or anyone else's in this trade... do you recall the (i think it Graybar?) posters portraying electricity as 'not a hobby' ?

That isn't propaganda is it? So if these orginizations are all so fired up over safety, while the market is milking the DIY contingent for all it's worth, why don't they start up that campaign again ?

No pain, No gain seems call here folks ,ya gotta crack a few eggs to make an omlet right?

put the fat cats on a diet.

shame the local grand poohbahs with your violation photo's.

rub the (not always so obvious) minset of cheap housing traded for safe housing in via incidents in your local news

~S~

My use of the term 'pirate' is based on the fact that I wasn't licensed then, but am now. It's also a recognition of the fact that I was taking a risk, (administrative though it was) operating in such a capacity.

I was surviving a job market - but I was also trying my damndest to follow all the same rules that applied to the 'legit' shops... from a personal liability, as well as public safety consideration.

I agree with you Sparky; the concept of insurance worries is minimal. It usually only comes into play after the structure is damged by fire. If the electric is determined to be the cause & origin, and it can be proved to be a non-compliant install, and then if said install method / means / equipment caused the fire. (I think it would be assumed that a non-compliant install was non-permited, but I think the greater concern of the insurance carrier would by the overall quality of the work, not the paper involved)

Such a determination would most likely be based on opinions generated by expert witnesses and investigators for the insurance company, not the AHJ. (see the posts about horrid installs that passed final by AHJ)

IMHO, the two types of violators we are all seeing seem to be:

a) Well-intentioned Ignorance - folks that do electrical work, without knowing the Code (at least the basic safety factors involved in it). DIY'ers and honest fixit's usually fall into this category. They try to do a neat and safe (at least not obviously unsafe) job, but aren't aware of all the factors we consider when installing. Usually these folks will acknowledge the limits of their expertise, and will call for help when over their heads - the problem is getting them to realize where that point is.

b) Cheapo, "old Pro", or FTAHJ (Forget The AHJ) - these guys are more dangerous. They short work because "doing it to Code is more expensive", "I know what to do - I've been working around houses for 10,000 years", or "I'm not going to pay the City for a damn piece of paper to work in my own house". These folks not only don't know that what they learned (from their boss who's brother - in - law's neighbor's boyfriend was a spark and taught them everything) was wrong to start with, but it's been wrong all these years. Or, they consider the Code (including changes, updates, the inspection and permit process) 'nuisances', only designed to feed the AHJ coffers.

I also include in this category the fixits who KNOW that what they're doing is wrong (Illegal, and (I'll be so bold as to include) potentially unsafe), but are willing to do it to max their profits - around here, the biggest violation is using NM - all the communities in my area are FMC / conduit, but Rome Wire (Romex's daddy) enjoys brisk sales at the Big Orange Box on weekends and evenings.

BTW, our community has ordinances against 'performing electrical installation, modification, or advertising ones self as an electrical contractor without being a licensed EC, in this City or elsewhere. We also have a municipal violations court - theoretically, cases for folks who get pinched for installs w/o license would be heard there, but I don't recall any arrests lately.

Well either I am reading this all wrong or I get the impression that some of you feel a license is just a piece of paper and insurance is a nusiance.

My question wasn't directed towards an electrician who is starting out doing jobs on the side because Frankly I think most of us start that way. I am talking about the contractors doing a kitchen and doing the electrical work, or a bathroom, or basement, etc. These guys are cheating the consumer as well as taking food off my table. If I am playing the game by the rules and shelling out thousands in insurance and payroll taxes and someone is undercutting the prices because he doesn't have to pay that overhead I have two choices. Make a stink about it or say screw the rules. I haven't gotten to the point of saying screw it yet so I am making a stink.

I have always believed that the best way to combat this problem is to have an informed public. There is no way for me to compete with someone with little or no overhead. I recently gave a price for 10 high hats in a living room on two dimmers. My price was around $1000. This was in a finished room. She got it done for $450. Now I'm sorry but if I start working for $100 a day my kids would look like starving ethiopians and we would be living in a cardboard box.

If your would-be customer was willing, you could offer a complimentary "code check", and tell her if she got a good deal (code level work) or if she got shafted (extension cord in the ceiling) and how you would have done it differently (higher quality).


This seems to be the root problem, other than the licensing and quality of work issues we've been hashing about. The impact on our wallets.

I don't think you'll find an argument here about a well-informed customer, willing to "pay for what they'll get", being preferable to one that simply shops the bottom line. Unfortunately, so many citizens believe an ad in the local paper and a shiny van make someone "qualified", especially in areas that they know nothing about.

Dishonest contractors (performing unlicensed or substandard work) probably won't take the time to explain the what, where, and why of the job they're being ask to quote on. Their concern is how much the H.O. is willing to pay, and how much profit they can make.

If you're like me, you've probably lost the initial sale of potential jobs, once the required work (and subsequent $$) was explained. And hopefully you've also had people do some research, and call you back to hire you - once they knew what questions to ask of the other EC's (or would be's) that followed you.

And as far as 'screw the rules' - there's a difference between following a municipality's rules to the letter (requiring a $50 permit for changing a regular duplex to a GFCI, for example), and covering your butt (contractor's insurance). I think of the insurance I have being less for my customers, and more for my wife and kids.

Pforte....sounds to me like you are dealing with alot of window shoppers. I find anyone who baulks at a fair price wasn't going to be a very good customer anyway. I used to try to work with them to stay busy but it usually was nothing but a headache. I am sure this is a soft spot with alot of people here.

This is an issue we have to deal with a lot here in Texas. There are no state license requirements (even though the state license bill was signed by the governor last June) so if you are working outside of a permitting jurisdiction you are under no ones scrutiny but your own.
My favorite response to home owners who want to cut corners because "an inspector will never see it" is that if I do sub-standard or non code-compliant work on their home and they have a fire, their insurance companies investigator could cancel them and not pay the claim if their investigation reveals shoddy work. Basically I tell them that in order to cover my on fanny it's the code way or no way for me. Most listen to reason, a few have gone with their carpenter who doubles as an electrician. (really)
I've had the same problem with contractors I have worked for around here. One couldn't believe that a switch leg on a 20 amp breaker was supposed to be wired with #12 wire. His answer to me was "it's only a 15 amp switch so we can use 14." No wonder he failed the SBCCI Masters test three times. It scares me to look into the attics around here, an abundance of #16 lamp cord tying receptacle circuits together, usually without the benefit of a box OR a wire nut.
Note: The Texas license law did not go into effect Sept. 1, 2003 as billed because the legislature, in their infinite wisdom, failed to fund the committee. Go figure.