When you are working with CMU construction with the conduit in the wall, how much time do you expect to spend with the bricklayers?

I lay out all opening clearly on the bottom course or footing. We assemble the boxes with 3' conduit stubs, etc.

I can't place the boxes for them. Yet it seems that they expect someone onsite at all times. Usually at this stage of the project there is not enough other work to be done to stay busy so I end up babysitting the bricklayers.

I just got back from a trip to the jobsite on this beautiful saturday morning and I'll have to go back again this afternoon. Maybe I just need to vent......but over the years bricklayers as a group are the most difficult trade to work with.

GJ

GJ;
I worked a school, all masonry. Myself against 25 brickies. Like you, I layed it out on the 1st course. Not to mention having to compare E plans to A plans finding many location changes. The masons mostly would only place the box and 1st. extension in block. I had to add all the extensions and make the sweep just right out the joint and into the edge of just one block. If you weren't there they would block right by you. It was tough keeping up with so many masons. I managed to get some help once in a while but mostly just me. I smoothed the masons over by buying them carpenter pencils and masons crayons. It took a while to gain their respect because they have preconceived notions of electricians, they basically hate seeing us. It gives them more to do as most masons are evaluated by the number of blocks they lay a day. I think the toughest part was the gymnasium. Having so many windows in the way, I had to get around them and manage all the stubs from power, lighting, F.A. security, phone and data. I have to say that that was a 2 year project where I never stood still.

[This message has been edited by Wirenuttt (edited 12-20-2003).]

Two choices for working with brickies in this area.

1)Babysit your work the entire time.

2)Let them go unsupervised and spend a lot of time fixing and repairing.

As much as I hate getting this assignment, isn't it our job to do anyway?

We do not expect carpenters to hang boxes and staple wires.

I think the only choice is to be on the site the whole time.

If the masons are working Saturdays because they are behind we would expect to be compensated of the OT work.

Here in Europe the course is different. First the masons do whatever they want and then the electricians channel for their conduit and boxes. After the conduit boxes, plumbing ect. is in place the plasterers come and finish the job. I still haven'T managed to figure out how the pros figure out how deep to set the boxes since that widely depends on the plaster thickness. Probably they don't think about it at all, all new construction I've seen has the boxes recessed about 3/8" into the walls, extension rings are unknown here. Probably the sparkies rather set the boxes much too deep than have them protrude from the plaster. Old work usually involves the electrician doing all the plaster patching. (tear up walls for cable/conduit + boxes, fasten them with globs of gypsum, pull wires and then patch up the plaster).

"It took a while to gain their respect because they have preconceived notions of electricians, they basically hate seeing us."

That is the attitude that I recieve also. Thanks for all the feedback, at least I know it's not just me.

GJ

Having done many block buildings, with mud boxes, I have always been on site to do the install. It's an easy day and nice to have once in awhile.

..Thats what I've had to do...I've actually waited..coarse by coarse until he'd reached the "insertion point" and held it in place while he bricked around it..it's the only way the job won't get mucked up...they dont know any better...

"It's an easy day and nice to have once in awhile"

I spent 4 1/2 hours today watching them lay block. What do you do when your easy day turns into an easy two weeks??

GJ

..Thats a hoot,...Kind of reminds me of how the dry-wall guys and the painters look at us....it's like they're thinkin'.."ohhh no,the electric gremlins are here to make a mess..."..."GET OUT..." ala "Amityville Horrors"....

I don't get involved in masonary jobs anymore,unless it's brick on a house or the odd recep or switch in a basement wall.
But I can remember being the designated "mason's helper" on several jobs.

Russell

That's funny, I don't ever remember having it easy working with masons. It must be that the company I worked for at the time was too cheap to give me a helper. They left me alone against 10-14 crews of two depending on which sight. There was nothing easy about that. They were spread out all over the building. I had to tape the plans on my van, use a battery powered sawzall with a tripod vise in the back. Back and forth all around all day. Only a few select masons were nice enough to hold off for a moment till I got there, the rest could care less.

Well, today was the first of alot of days with the "brickies". I am currently starting a 310,00 sq ft High School. I don't so much care about having to run around all day but what pi$$es me off is the fact that the immigrant labor will work till sundown. We quit at 4:00. Why should one trade dictate hours worked on a project. Especially when my time turns into overtime at an un-necessary interval of the job. Everyone knows they all work the long hours because they just prolong the inevitable(loading the 50 extension ladders on the top of the conversion vans )

elektrikguy, Why let them dictate the hours? If they close up without letting you install your work, get the demo hammer out, 20lb sledge, and remove there block. See if they want to cover your overtime, then do it that way.
Another thing to do is have a talk with the inspector, he can slow them down. In Cambridge MA the head inspector is always asking if the contractor is being to pushy, and offers to slow them down.

eletrikguy;
As far as I can remember, contracts are for straight time, if one contractor forces another contractor to work overtime, it will be at the expense of the G.C. So if the GC doesn't want to pay a sub OT over and above contract price it's up to them.

if mason chasing is driving you nuts be prepared! prefab everything in advance. mark floor with crayon, attach boxes with 1 1/4 tile rings with 1st 3' piece and have your nipples ready with coupling already attached. stub outs bent and ready for cut and install. another thing we did was to pre paint the interior of the boxes with a color code such as: red for fire alarm,black for dirty power white for clean power and any color for telecommunications. hope this helps

"I am currently starting a 310,00 sq ft High School."

I feel for you.
We are having a tough time getting a little bathhouse built. The weather has not been helpful, but these guys are painfully slow, which translates to more time on the jobsite for us.

GJ

Thanks for the replies guys. Heck, found out today they added another gymnasium so the project is up to 320,00 sq feet.

Rizer...I had a couple apprentices prefabbing exactly like you had mentioned.(great minds think a like I guess) As far as the crayon on the floor...they sprinkle a heavy layer of sand after the first course followed by about 4-6 inches of mortar that doesn't hit its mark so the marks will disappear. These guys aren't even close to being tradesman. There are beavers up in Canada that can cut a cleaner hole than these guys.

Wirenutt... I piped up at the weekly meeting today and got the support of the plumbing contractor which finally started a huge discussion. I had asked the Masonry foreman right across the table to state his hours of work so I can prepare. He smuggly said that his guys work " from dusk to dawn and will be working on the weekend....They get paid by the brick......" We will see what the weekend brings.

P.S. It has been a long time since I went to high school and I can not believe the receptacles and communications. Some rooms at every table. Times have changed I guess

"As far as the crayon on the floor...they sprinkle a heavy layer of sand after the first course followed by about 4-6 inches of mortar that doesn't hit its mark so the marks will disappear. "

Same problem here. What I have been doing is using a can of "Mark-It" spray paint to mark the bottom course. You can read the marks from 50' away and even the bricklayers can't destroy them.

GJ

I thought about the marking paint idea as well. My only question was whether the paint will be covered and not show up through the paint. If the orange paint is not going to be a problem I will definately use this method.

I am still at a loss as to why the masons are running the job.

Look right across the table and say fine, I will bill for all costs above straight time, or I will bill for the time to fish them after.

The office I work for would not expect any less of me and would support this move.

The project manager would follow up with letters stating the same to the GC.

Now it is up to the GC to decide if he wants to slow the masons or pay the plumbers & electricians.

Be a squeaky wheel because if you do not make waves you will continue to be abused during the whole project.

I do not mean uncooperative but don't take any grief either.