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Posted By: sparky66wv NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/20/03 11:25 PM
My worst nightmare came true:

In an effort to keep from having jobs overlap and having the higher paying jobs prioritized, I have managed to pretty much put myself out of work.

Short Story Long:

Just a few weeks ago, the point-man I deal with for my biggest job approached me at my suppliers with the question: "do you still want #13?"

"Yes, we're excited about it" I said...

And I preceded to let him know I would drive by from time to time to check status and he said he'd have the contract ready in a few days.

Few days pass, I decide to check on the status, weather has been bad, so I'm not too concerned.

Jimmy and I round the corner, and sure enough, only half the decking in on the roof, and there's probably a few more days left before they are ready for us...
except... there are electrical boxes hung...

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...

And they look an awful lot like my old partner's style of work...

So, I'm starting to see red, and I drive to the office of said GC. They're in a meeting and want me to give them a half hour.

Half hour passes, I've calmed down some...

Still in meeting, come back in 15...

So, I come back 15 minutes later, finally talking to the same point-man.

Here are the facts:
1) The crew my old partner, Joe works for now got the job "to keep them busy".

2) No one contacted me or tried to contact me.

3) The point-man works for a different division now and wasn't part of the decision.

4) I have turned down work in order to keep the time open for the job.

5) I have gained the reputaion of being the "Electrical Evangelist" and a "troublemaker".

That's why I'm back to doing rescue work...

[Linked Image]
Posted By: ga.sparky56 Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/20/03 11:55 PM
Had a similar situation happen last month.Had a verbal agreement.Went by to lay it out, well, you told the rest of my story. 8000 sq.ft out the window.Guess we'll have to do what the Govt. told the Indians"Endeavor to persevere".
Posted By: sparky Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/21/03 12:02 AM
While i applaude any EC's upholding the NEC as you do Virgil, i must ask in all honesty what batterymarch park has granted you in return here.

Every EC here has had to cheat a cu. in. volume, add the 31st conductor,or place a GFI on an old bathrm circuit.

It's a dog eat dog trade my friend, why wear the milkbone underwear?
Posted By: mamills Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/21/03 12:50 AM
Virgil:
Sorry to hear about this situation. I have no compassion for someone who will stab someone else in the back like this. I am not an electrician (big surprise, huh) but I have been here at ECN long enough to learn that this is a highly competitive, cutthroat business...I guess you have to learn the bad along with the good. It seems as though people want an EC who works "somewhere in the middle". No one wants to deal with an EC who does poor, slipshod work. On the other hand, no one wants to hire an EC who posesses values and strives to do a first class job (as you and others here do) because of the cost. Something has gone wrong somewhere along the way... I think it's called "the economy". my best wishes to you.

Mike (mamills)
Posted By: Electric Eagle Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/21/03 01:47 AM
Who's temp pole was on the job? When I set a temp pole on a job, it's considered a a contract to wire the house(IMO). But also in my area you have to pull a permit for the house to get the temp pole hooked up. If for no real reason a GC let someone else wire one of "my" jobs, I would be sending a bill for the profit I would've made on the job and for the use of my temp pole(which I set for free as part of a whole house job).

I don't know if you want to risk burning bridges, but you may have some recourse because of the situation you descibed.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/21/03 07:52 AM
Virgil,

That Sucks!!! Flat-Out SUCKS!!!

Glad you kept your cool!!!
(I went Ballistic! - mad and bad words, not destroying anything!).

Scott35
Posted By: sparky Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/21/03 12:21 PM
I've had those whom 'dangled the carrot' simply for a quick temp service. I also get many tire kickers this time of year, so i have 5-6 frames already.

ask for a schedule, get a test pattern look, and that's all i really need to know.

point?

i make my schedule, no one else. no one GC is that important for me to leave open a time frame without exacting dates , $$$$, an a signature.

because really, other that that, it's a fairy tale right? remember, we are one of a string of dominoes when solicited, GC's (et all psuedo GC's as well) either have it in one sock or they do not.

no prisioners my friends, don't even try the white flag bit with me, sorry.
Posted By: C-H Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/21/03 04:02 PM
Virgil,

you seem to be up to impossible odds. I know this is heresy, but have you considered cutting the corners with the highest cost reduction and the least safety reduction. Make a list of what takes time and cost money and then look at any possible savings.

Perhaps reducing the standard of the installation by putting in a few receptacles less and fewer circuits?

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 03-21-2003).]
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/21/03 04:41 PM
C-H, well in this case, I'd have to actually, get the job first... The profit potential comes later...

My goal is to make myself so busy (how?) that I will be in a good position to tell them where to go when they do call me...

</pipe dreams>

Not sure who hung the temp, I guess I should've known from that alone...

Right now I'm so discouraged that I didn't work yesterday, and I may not work today.

Guess I have a bad attitude towards the whole shebang.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-21-2003).]
Posted By: CRW Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/22/03 01:45 AM
Virgil, what do you (or they) mean by "electrical evangelist"?
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/22/03 02:47 AM
I quote code like a preacher quotes scripture.

Being able to say: "210.12 requires the use of AFCIs" instead of: " 'cuz it's code" makes me seem more professional, or so I thought. (...just an example...)

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-21-2003).]
Posted By: nesparky Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/22/03 12:49 PM
This is just another example of GC's who want the job done at NO cost to them.
How are these people whe it comes to paying their bills?
Once you start a job for them, do they have a clue? do their jobs go smoothly?
If they are slow pay and trouble on the job, look else where.
If they are gripping about an electric evangalist, they do not want quality work.

Good luck

[This message has been edited by nesparky (edited 03-23-2003).]
Posted By: arseegee Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/22/03 07:30 PM
Virgil, there are a few things you must ALWAYS remember about being a sub contractor. "No good deed goes unpunished", "there is no honor among thieves", "the C-rate company with the low bid looks great on paper", and last "someone was wiring these jobs before us and there will be some poor sole doing it after we are long gone."

I dont fall for the dangling carrot anymore. All i can say is if you would not trust someone with your life, dont trust them with your business. C-O-N-T-R-A-C-T!!!

I have learned that code thumping in front of customers and GC usually leads to a p*ssing contest. Now I play dumb and say "i dont know if that is allowed, let me call the inspector on that". Knowing all along that the code does not allow it and as soon as i alert the inspector he'll agree with me. It's a good trick and has always worked for me. Good Luck!

[This message has been edited by arseegee (edited 03-22-2003).]
Posted By: wocolt Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/23/03 12:53 AM
arseegee
That is it in a nutshell Contract, trying to be the NICE-GUY gets you exactly no-where, and especially not paid.

WOC
Posted By: electure Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/23/03 01:20 PM
Electrical Evangelism is just what's needed in your area. It doesn't equate to troublemaking at all, but rather quality.
My Code and safety ravings have earned me some nicknames: "Troublemaker, Prima Donna, Walking Code book, Emperor, Inspector Gadget,...and yes, electure". I still try to stick by my guns, but have realized that you can't save someone from themself.
Those that Mickey Mouse will continue to do so. (and make excuses for it)
It's just a shame that it affects your bottom line and the well being of their customers [Linked Image]...S
Posted By: Scott35 Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/23/03 09:04 PM
Scott (Electure),

Well said!!!

Scott35
Posted By: Mvannevel Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/25/03 01:52 PM
Virgil,

I know exactly how you feel. When I inspect a job, I expect it to meet the code (which, after all, is a set of MINIMUM standards). In return, I'm looked at as (and called) a code Nazi, a self-important bureaucrat, and some things I can't print here. Cutting corners isn't the answer, it's the problem. Don't feel bad about sticking to your guns. After all, you're the guy who has to look in the mirror when you shave. You don't want to stop being able to look yourself in the eye. A good suggestion was made about deflecting the criticism to the inspector. That's one of the things we're here for. I try to strike a balance between the letter of the code and the spirit of the code, and I'm sure you do too. All good electricians and inspectors should strive to do that. Shake this one off, and get on down the road. Sounds like you're not only lucky to be shed of your former partner, but rid of this GC as well. They both sound like a couple of snakes...
Posted By: sparky Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/25/03 09:27 PM
what inspectors?

where?

constantly having to convince GC's , architechs, homeowners (et all biz prospects) of what quality is in this trade gets old.

i think i've gone toe to toe with my share, earned the nicknames, and lost enough biz to b***h here.

why should i go to EC heaven with fingerless gloves while the people who pump out a code standard every 3 years don't support me?
Posted By: BuggabooBren Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/26/03 07:35 AM
As a homeowner who now has owned 2 homes wired with aluminum wiring, I find my awareness of QUALITY and SAFETY is incredibly higher than ever before. In fact, the home I am in now is the most absurd configuration with half the outlets/receptacles wired into the circuit that supplies power to the garage so I literally have to leave the wall switch in the garage ON if I want the outlet in either the master bath or the guest bath to be LIVE. Ditto for the outlet in the front room that powers the TV. If my hubby turns on an electric saw or power tool in the garage, we have a brown out in the other locations.

The inspector said the developer had 3 electricians (circa 1968), 2 that were so-so and 1 was excellent. My house had the excellent one and though the planning was questionable, the work was done nicely. It still doesn't help the current situation (pardon the pun, I couldn't resist... again). As a homeowner who would like to sleep once in a while and not worry if I'll wake up to an electrical disaster that threatens my family's safety, I have to wonder about the integrity of the GC or the developer when safety is compromised. I know that most potential home owners want a good value but I can't see why they would cut corners on something as potentially dangerous and vitally important as their electrical systems.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/26/03 12:16 PM
Bren,

If I were to guess I'd say that the switch in your Garage is hooked up incorrectly to the wires in that box. This is something that often happens if a switch is installed or changed incorrectly. In other words that situation may be easily resolvable.

Bill
Posted By: Mvannevel Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/26/03 01:12 PM
Therein lies the problem Sparky. Look at any of these discussion boards, and you'll see half of the electricians b**ching about lack of code compliance, and the other half b**ching because some inspector wants them to follow the code. And, of course there's always the contractor who wants his competition to follow the absolute letter of the code while he gets a free pass to ignore it. Toss in local political subdivisions who adopt "Rehab Codes" that water down the code and (in my opinion) workmanship, as well as hiring the local precinct committeeman's cousin as the electrical inspector, and you've got a pretty good idea of the climate in our trade these days. Is there a good answer for these problems? I don't know. That's what I come here for. I do know this, those of us who are truly concerned with safety and quality workmanship need to stick to our guns before the trade goes completely to hell.
Posted By: US Coreman Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/26/03 05:16 PM
How about this situation. Our area had no real electrical inspector a year ago. The building inspector did everything. Two of us were hired. I have been trained and certified to IAEI standards. The other inspector is a contractor. I view the codes from the point of an inspector. I cite the code sections as often as time allows in my red tags so the contractor can see I'm not making this stuff up. I believe that I'm firm but fair; I don't feel that I have to find something wrong at an inspection. But I do feel that we all read from the same book. The other inspector while diligent, I believe, tends to look at things as an inspector, but also, from a contractor working in the area. Rumor is that the builders don't like me. That only bothers me that I'm the only stalwart to maintain the quality of work that is installed. I've been told that all you can do is your job, the best you can. Be fair, and equal.
Posted By: rowdyrudy Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/26/03 07:20 PM
Thee EC's and inspectors who have posted their opinions on this thread should remember a previous posting of mine. To wit:
The NFPA is not legally responsible for any errors or omissions that may cause unsafe installations.
The inspectors, and their municipalities, are not legally liable for misinterpretations or misapplications of the NEC that may result in unsafe installations. (Check the ordinance where they accepted the NEC).
Who is legally liable? You are my friend. The EC bears the ultimate responsibility to provide a safe installation.
If a component of the electrical system is defective when installed and causes property loss or personal injury, you are responsible because as the expert "You should have known". Remember, YOU are the expert.
Rowdy
Posted By: Mvannevel Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/26/03 08:21 PM
But, remember this Rowdy, your best bet to limit your liability, if not eliminate it altogether, is to obtain permits and get inspections. Take a guess at what happens on a job, even if you've done everything correct, but have no permit or inspections. You're automatically at fault, and somebody else's name is going to be on the sides of your trucks by the time you finish paying for it. I'm not saying it's a perfect world or that the code is a perfect document, only that it's what we have and as far as codes go, it's far and away the best. And, to take it a step further, electricians, as a whole, are generally more knowledgeable about our code than any other trade. Look, I was a contractor once too. I know it's tough out there. All I'm saying is that electricians and inspectors are ultimately working for the same goal, which is a safe installation. If we hope to reach that goal, we need to work together, not against each other.
Posted By: rowdyrudy Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/26/03 09:24 PM
I would agree that all involved should work together for a safe installation. I also believe that if I have no liability for my actions, I will behave in a quite different manner than if I am responsible for any action that I undertake. It is my belief that if the NFPA is going to produce a code and municipalities are going to accept that code and hire inspectors to be enforcers, then they should not have blanket immunity for any improper actions. The major problem is that the inspectors know they have this immunity and many abuse the system.
Rowdy
Posted By: sparky Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/26/03 10:40 PM
work together .....i'm the 'expert' eh?

all fine and well.....

i'll tell you what, in my office there are stacks of EC&M, Electrical Contractor, IAEI , Power Q , CEE rags.

show me where there is any electrical orginization publicly advocating a benchmark such as <gasp> licensure.

don't you find it odd that the beuarcracy(s) that make a living writing standards cannot extend this one morsel of acknowledgement as a standard for the trade?
Posted By: Mvannevel Re: NEC Compliance = "Troublemaker" - 03/27/03 12:48 PM
Well Rowdy, I can't speak for the inspectors in your area, but as for my assistant inspectors and I, we don't consider ourselves as having any sort of immunity. Never have. We see our responsibility for a safe, code compliant installation the same now as we did when we had the tools on. Not only that, but the Building Department EXPECTS us to get it right when we do an inspection. Maybe I'm a little spoiled here in Michigan. We have state licensing, which requires continuing education credits for renewal. Inspectors must be at least a journeyman for two years (which means a minimum of 6 years in the trade) or a master. Continuing education credits are also required to maintain registration as an inspector. Does that mean we have a perfect system here, or that I'm a perfect inspector? Not by a long shot. Nobody does,or is, and I doubt any political subdivision ever will have a perfect system with perfect inspectors. Just the same as the NEC will never be a perfect code. There's no such animal. And don't forget, writing, changing, and interpreting the code is a way to make a living for those at the NFPA. Leave it the way it is or make it understandable for the masses, and they'd be out of work. Same with all of the people who work at those trade rags you talked about Sparky. Like I said earlier, I don't know what the answer is. I just know we have to do the best we can with what we've got and keep trying to make it better as we go along.
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