I've noticed a lot of rushing, but no training in the residential field. It's, "lets get it done, the heck with why and how it's done!" We have a new apprentice who is getting "NO" training at all, yet he's getting a lot of abuse. How the heck can apprentice learn anything, if they are never aloud to ask questions--because the j-man are so busy trying to get work done fast!???

Residential is a hard part of the field to sit back and explain things. It's a very competitive market. You have to rush to make any money on it. Industrial can be fast pace too but not like residential where it's wire and run to the next one. I learned most of my residential the hard way by just following, reading, and asking people not necessarily at work. It;s nice to have someone guide you through into a career but it's not anyone elses responsibilty but yourself to improve and learn.

Very Sad!! Those apprentices will someday fill the shoes of the masters and journeymen! Scary thought for sure!!

It's terrible! I'll bet that the shop also hires cheap labor who work from the back of a van near the border, and for less money.

Wirenuttt, did you learn how to become an electrician from one, or from a family member?

(If i may be so forward here)
Wirenuttt has worked for every no good, ignorant, self involved fool this trade has to offer.

That said, It was my good fortune to start as his apprentice, because no one since really gave a crap.

The problem with apprenticeship is the true maening of the word is not what it was 100 years ago. It simply means a 4-5 year hazing today....

This applies to any job out there. You will find your typical a**holes. You will also find people who are good people and not neccessarily good teachers. If it were me I would find a new job where I could work for someone who gives a crap about quality work and respects the help. As an apprentice I worked for a contractor that was well established, had a good reputation, and the j men were all at least five to ten year employees. These are gennerally good signs to look for. Staying with the jerks just makes life miserable and will certainly hurt the apprentice in the long run.

I bounced around alot from shop to shop. It's unfortunate that a helpper gets no respect. What we need is more concern for quality of the job. This means do it to Code, and just as important, make it look neat. I guess each one of us went through the get it done fast syndrome, until we worked with a mechanic that cared how the job looks. I guess it depends how much pride we take in our work also. I feel that a neat job is sort of like a signature of the sparkys work, because you never know who will follow you up, and see your work. I get great satisfaction in seeing a job I had done a year later and checking it out.

I have noticed looking back over my career that the electricians who were not willing to teach and were the most abussive, were the least tallented and least knowledged.

I think the secure electrician has a lot of pride in saying, I trained that guy you are so impressed with.

SJT, I worked for a company once, who's policy was that you had to sign and date the interior of the panel. This would identify the wirer of the job forever. This company overall had very nice completed jobs.

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 02-19-2003).]

My phlosophy for apprentices/helpers or "newbies" is that they should ask questions.
If they don't know how to do something right and safe, they have to ask!
There is no such thing as a "dumb/stupid" question, except the one that isn't asked!

Our company policy is also to sign and date our panels, switchboards, etc., and we also sign/initial the "red line" prints (as builts) so everyone knows who did what.

Yes, you can learn by watching, reading, and taking classes, but field work, and field questions are necessary.

The apprentices/helpers will be the journeymen/electricians of tommorrow!
John

Great responses! I couldn't agree more! Heck, we need more people in the field-such as yourselves-that express the true meaning of team work. In addition, self pride (in ones work), and willingness to help when one needs it!

Do what I did. Took code classes. Went to home centers and spent hours examining every bit of electrical stuff. Read every book I could find (afford).Sent away for parts catalogs and studied them at night instead of watching TV. Read all the forums. Then when you are finished and you think you know it all go to work and keep asking questions. Only now you can go home and research the answers you get before stashing it away in your head.

Guys....I can dig everything said. I wish that I had an answer to this problem. I can only offer this. As long as money is the driving force behind the "pace" of the construction industry, this problem will always exist. That said. I think it is safe to say that this problem will always exist in some form. It would be easy to say that companies should "foot the bill" to train their people. The fact is....they should shoulder some of the cost of training. But, as we all know, some (or many) companies don't. You may ask, "Where are headed with this Doc?" In my opinion, we (the individual) must take matters into our hands, and train ourselves by way apprenticeship programs, junior colleges, ECN, etc.
I work for a company that doesn't train their people. I came from a background of extensive training. For quite some time, I felt sorry for our untrained workers. Then something happened. I found out that many of our employees didn't want submit themselves to training. They didn't want to do the things necessary to be trained. Old Doc quit feeling sorry for those guys. I don't feel guilty because I'm trained, and they aren't.
I do try to help those who want to be trained. To all you apprentices out there, that are being "used and abused", hang in, and stay the course. The old saying, "This too shall pass" is true. I don't want this post to sound like I'm "in the same corner" as these companies. I just believe that the choice is ours, and we must choose to invest in our own education and training.

It's happening everywhere,
Doc

My helper Jimmy and I have a symbiotic relationship. I agree to teach him as much as he can absorb, and he agrees to give me his best effort.

So far I think he is pleased... I know I am.

I was lucky to have a mentor that cared, I suppose... I intend to uphold the tradition.

What's the point of doing an apprenticeship, if you aren't learning anything, it's the apprentice and the trade later on that suffers in the end!.
Apprentices are there to be trained, we've all done it(or should have), get with it!

Mentoring and apprenticeship are great opportunities but if it's possible to set some structure (ground rules)in place, the value can be increased.

Like Doc said, a person has to want to learn and be willing and able to be trained. And as many of you have noted, a mentor has to be willing to teach and evidence shows that those who aren't willing are usually either trying to cover for their own ineptitude or they're afraid that the trainee is a bright guy who'll take the work away if he really catches on.

So, either party can launch the 'formalizing' of the training path. Start by stating what you'd like to learn, that you think the person you're speaking with does work that appears to be correct, done with integrity and care, etc., and you're wondering if they would be willing to teach you and you'd be willing/able to assist as you learn. I know that's easier said than done in many cases but the mentoring program where I work provided a great way to formalize without being very restrictive. Either party can approach the other and if the request is well received and followed through, both people can see some benefits.

To not train others can be a shameful waste of the opportunity and yet I know it happens all the time. To have shoddy work be the standard that's offered is absurd especially when there must be hard-working, willing-to-learn folks out there looking for a way to earn their keep.

In Canada the provinces (equivalent to states) administer the apprenticeship system.

The Apprentice, the Employer, and the Apprenticeship Division enter into a three way contract, each having certain obligations.

To make a long story short, the employer agrees to release the apprentice for 30 days (a six-week period) of in-school training each year, for the "knowledge component" and take him/her back if the work still exists.
The in-school training is done in the Community Colleges, and is paid for by the taxpayers. I recently retired after 28 years instucting in this program.

The employer's journeyman who directly supervises the apprentice is responsible for "rating" the apprentice's skill development on the job. The ratings are periodically recorded in a little book carried by the apprentice.

Each "skill" (example - Install and maintain single-phase motors) is rated at a 1, 2, or 3 level.
1 = Has been exposed to the skill.
2 = Can perform the skill with assistance and supervision.
3 = Can perform the skill without assistance or supervision.

Apprentices are required to pass a test after each of 8 "Sections" of the in-school program is completed, and a final Inter-Provincial Exam, which is recognized country wide (in all provinces).

Apprentices must also have a certain combination of skill ratings to write the IP exam.

I'm interested in how the Apprenticeship program operates in the USA. Are there any similarities? Major differences?

Ed

Hello from South Dakota!!

I have always taken the aproach to learn all that I can. The more you know the better you are at what you do.
I have also made myself available to all of my apprentices after work (espeacially on residential, where the pace is too fast during work)to answer questions and show them faster ways to do their jobs.
I have always taken responsibility for my apprentices and their growth. The boss never has. I just feel that as their J-Man I should do all that I can. And it gives me great pride in knowing that all the guys I have trained are now J-Men too!

Jon

We spend a lot of time training. As a journeyman I feel it's part of my job responsiblity to train my apprentice, just as my boss trained me.

It makes the crews more efficient and raises the quality level of our product. This all helps the company make more $$'s.

FWIW we have had very few people quit over the years and none have quit to work for the competition.

GJ

Training where I am can be a weird thing. My company is about 80% Hispanic (mainly from Honduras and El Salvador), with the remainder being about 5% black, and 10% White. I am Scotch (2nd generation US) and so am in the 2nd smallest minority of the company (about 70-75 men in total). To many of the guys, they have seemed to decide that they can not take on an apprenticeship due to the language barrier, despite the fact that many of them are actually quite skilled in instillation (some more so than me, much to my chagrin but I don’t let them know, makes for embarrassing situations when the come up with a much better idea than my own J).

Now to combat this, the owner (may he rule divine ) of the company is offering free English classes at the shop after work, but for some reason the only guys coming to the classes are already Foreman, or have large responsibility for a particular section of a large commercial job (Low Voltage, Fire Alarm, etc.)!

So it seems to me that there is some line that is drawn between those who want to be trained (and are actively getting said training) and those that are happy with being the guy with the broom cleaning up pieces of MC and other debris, and a much smaller amount who want to get ahead!

Where is the line between wanting to be trained and the company not having the time to properly train you due to a rush job, and the fact that some people don’t want the training despite the fact that it is being offered? Comments? Experiences the same or very different?

From an apprentice running a job through opportunity.

Pete


[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 02-22-2003).]

Great responses! I am doing great at my company. Yet, the apprentice that was being abused was fired today! This is a sad day! How the heck can someone ever learn anything, if they are not given the opportunity to learn. This guy had no real idea on how to do anything, but he was pushed-to the wolves, and was eaten alive! This is wrong in my eyes, because it destroys the individual moral intent, and want for the trade. It gives the trade a bad name, and leaves an ill taste in the mouth of those who seek understanding of what they long to create as a future. Yes, it's our responsibility to self learn portions of the trade. But the simple fact remains: It is the J-mans responsibility to explain the trade-applying code when necessary!

The first electrician I worked for was very cheap and always was in a rush to get work done. He couldn't make money if we weren't hustling. He would cut corners where ever he could to wind up being penny wise and pound foolish. The best part about working for him was that he didn't want to look in the code book anymore. If we got to a job that was difficult, he made me look up the answer. Then he would ask me what to do. That made me learn how to read the code book. I learned where thing were in the code book and why they were there. When I had men, I needed to be quick also, but I told my men that I would be more than happy to go over any questions that they had about the code. Then the shoe was on the other foot. The would love to hear me preach and teach the code on my time, but the never could/would stay a few minutes late to learn new codes. Of the many employees I had, 3 of them got their contractors license. I was proud of those guys.