I recently saw 5-inch remodel non-IC cans made by Commercial Electric (model K3) at Home Depot. The can has a 75W max R20 bulb rating and is UL stamped. The junction box is located on top of the can rather than on an extended arm (like the Halo cans). Is this a safety issue? Is Commercial Electric a reliable brand? By the way the K3 costs ~1/4 of a Halo of the same size. Your input is very much appreciated !!

[This message has been edited by 2bz2p (edited 02-04-2003).]

Commercial Electric is a brand name for the store your buying them from. If it the same recessed light that I am picturing I wouldn't use them if the store offered to pay me to take them off the shelves. I don't think the junction box is listed for feed thru wiring which means you can only have 1 cable in each light. How does it mount? As I remember there is a metal plate the goes above the ceiling that connects to the housing. The Halo as well as many other brands have spring clips that are very easy to install. The trim is included right? What if you want something different? I don't think you can buy trims for these housings. You get what you pay for. Use the Halo or other name brand.

Curt

I used them once several years ago and wasn't comfortable with the design.
Also, as caselec said there is a question about feed-through wiring.
BTW,
I find 410.11 somewhat ambiguous in that it seems to permit feed-through wiring if the the fixtures are operating together, even if not identified as such. Does this restriction only pertain to wiring on a different part of the lighting circuit?

What is on the market is advocated by NRTL's , which would predictably change should the trade (read, trenches of) were to have any input.

410.11 & 32 would probably follow suit...

ps~ do we need a BB poll?



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 02-04-2003).]

We won't install a Commercial Electric can. If a customer buys them, we tell them to take them back and buy Halo. When we supply cans, which is 99% of the time, we use Halo or Juno. Sometimes we will use the Commercial Electric trims with a Halo can. There are many reasons, mostly being quality. The fit and finish doesn't come to my standards and it makes us look bad if the job looks sloppy.

I will explain the difference between the good can(Juno,lightolier)and not so good can(halo,commercial)and most of the time clients will pay more to go with the best quality. And if it is a cheap customer which only wants cheap cans i will not do the job because i know i will be the person after six months to be blamed after when the cans are not working properly.
The customer pays for the material explain the goods and bads so you will not look bad later on.
Because they will say abc electric installed it and it does not work.They will not say that i have picked the cans.
there goes your reputation.

So install quality produts.

edward

J U N K !!!!!!!!

Just curious -- what temperature rating is required for terminating in the box? Since romex is rated 90C only for ampacity derating purposes, it can't be used in a box that requires 90C wires, which I'm supposing is the case for the type of box location you described, 2bz2p.

By the way, there is movement afoot to require recessed lights to be sealed against drafts when recessed cans are installed in places where it is difficult to install adequate insulation above the fixture -- like in vaulted ceiling areas. I guess there are some can lights on the market which don't have open adjustment slots (which result in convection drafts through the fixture), but I haven't seen them yet. Anybody used these types of fixtures yet?

All I have to say is......

2bz2p....now that is one heck of a handle!!!

Makes ya think for a few.....

I got it, wonder if anyone else did??

John

Your right, it makes you think, but I got it too.

TW

ElZappr,

I believe that NM-B cable, which became available around 1985, is suitable for these fixtures due to the 90 deg. rating as long as it's ampacity is determined in accordance with the 60 deg. column. Pre-1985 NM cable would not be suitable due to the lower temp. rating.
Same thing with most of the surface mounted ceiling fixtures being sold these days.

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 02-06-2003).]

Used Commercial brand once and fortunatly it was on my home. Never, ever again will I use it or recommend it. Amen!
Mark

Elzppr In Massachusetts you are required to use the fixtures you refer to where insulation is required. They are generally called "Airtight" and are completly sealed against air leakage. Different manufacturers have different methods of accomplishing this but they generally have no openings in the can and incorporate some type of rubber gasket.

Thanks, Electricmanscot.
Redsy, thanks for the NM-B info. I wasn't sure about how it all worked out, but I figured I'd just pass along my guesswork and see if anyone would correct me on it. I know in normal can lights, the j-box is away from the heat (with 18" of high temp wire leading to the socket), and so NM-B wire is ok. Without seing one of the "commercial electric" models I didn't know if the same type of wire could be used.

Elzappr: I believe you are right with respect to not being able to use Romex since the box location is right on top of the can. The instruction on the j-box cover reads something like this "...conductor suitable for at least 90C permitted..."

Redsy: I don't quite understand the relationship between the 90 degree rating and "...60 degree column" in your last comment. Great if you would elaborate. Thanks.

All: I appreciate everyone's advice and will definitely shop for another brand.

2bz,

NM-B cable has a temperature rating of 90 deg. C, but Article 334.80 states that the ampacity of NM cables be in accordance with the 60 deg. conductor temp. rating (table 310.16).

not all IC's are created equal, but then again not all insulation is either. i would not trust some in allegedly IC cans in a blown in environ.

the variety that instructs the installer to 'srcape off the label' to become IC is the most humerous to be.

yrs
~Steve
2bz2S

Sparky why would you single out blown in insulation. From what I understand the cellulose type is treated with fire retardant. I guess we have to trust the listing agency that lists these products that when properly installed they are all perfectly safe.