ECN Forum
Posted By: renosteinke Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 12/28/15 10:15 PM
Remember Jimmy Carter? Back then, he tried to sell us on "alternative energy." Quotas were set, regulations imposed, tax codes amended, and there were various subsidies, rebates, etc.

The moment the subsidies expired, the little storefronts selling 'solar' switched to selling wheelchairs, almost overnight.

For the past decade, the push for solar has been present. Has it been any different this time?

I think not. Looking at this news item http://www.kkoh.com/2015/12/24/solar-company-to-stop-selling-in-nv/ we can see just how fragile the business is.

At the mere suggestion that the power company will reduce what it pays for your excess generation (no more "net metering"), this firm shuts down. That says quite a bit for all those glowing dollar figures the sales folks have been tossing about!

More importantly, the entire controversy ignores the latest twist to solar: micro inverters. With micro inverters, the generated power is converted to AC right at the solar panel, and is simply back-fed into your panel. No more "second meter," transfer switch, or permits needed.

Once again, technology and reality have completely out-maneuvered our bureaucracies and politicians. Is anyone surprised?

I think we need to utterly reject this idea that we can mandate "progress" by fiat.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 12/28/15 11:11 PM
Reno:
You said...."More importantly, the entire controversy ignores the latest twist to solar: micro inverters. With micro inverters, the generated power is converted to AC right at the solar panel, and is simply back-fed into your panel. No more "second meter," transfer switch, or permits needed."

Not the case here. Solar (resi) is about an even split between MIs and 'regular' inverters. Yes, permits are required. Yes, NET meters are still required.

As to solar dying a slow death....I get about five (5) per week (Resi).


Posted By: gfretwell Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 12/29/15 01:39 AM
As far as I can tell, if you still buy more than you make, your regular meter works fine. The power you make stays at your house and the meter runs slower. You will not get paid for any excess power tho.
That was the pitch anyway when they were selling me some. The deal fell through when I found out the Florida money was gone and I would not get the $4 a watt subsidy. Suddenly my system was not affordable. I still have the proposal on the fridge in case things turn around. Collectors are certainly getting cheaper.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 12/29/15 02:05 AM
Greg:
Let me embellish the metering a little more.

The POCO (PSE&G) replaces the existing meter with a 'net meter' upon receipt of a cut-in-card indicating inspection was passed.

The solar installer installs a 'solar meter' that records KWHr of solar production. Most installs have various solid state monitoring devices in addition to the meters

I do not know the current value of SRECs, but I do know it is a lot less thenthe past.

There's rumor of a large POCO solar farm coming to a landfill in the spring.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 12/29/15 03:44 AM
I suppose it all depends on how they pay for the power you create. The way I understand it here is they will pay for power you return to the grid at wholesale, requiring a special meter but if you are just creating it and using it all yourself the meter just does not see that power at all. That was back in the analog meter days.
If the rumor that putting it in upside down would make it go backward, it might have actually been crediting you at retail tho since net power would be going out.
I could see why they might want to stop that.
The new "smart" meter we have now may work differently.
It may be able to track back flow separately right now.
We do get some cool statistics tho.
I used between 1.8mwh to 2.4mwh each month this year
My hourly usage gets down around 1kwh in the middle of the night but by the time the sun is up, I am up over 3kwh.
I doubt I will ever be able to afford a system that would offset my lowest spot usage.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 12/29/15 07:06 PM
Any attempt to regulate the use of micro-inverters is bound to be as successful as attempts to prevent home brewing have been.

Installing a micro-inverter is so easy, it can be done in minutes, by most anyone, without interrupting household supply. The only question is whether the meter will run backwards or not.

Separate meters? Simply not possible, when the micro-inverter ties directly to a breaker in the common panel. There is NO separate panel needed for them. The breaker is all the disconnect you need.

Permits? Might as well require them for replacing a light switch.

Impede the use of micro inverters, and you're taking away the biggest incentive to having solar at all. Until their advent, solar installations were a nightmare of major electrical work. With them, adding solar is as easy as adding a porch light.

Now, there might be a world where legions of agents slink around, peeking into yards and neighbors are expected to inform on each other .... ever notice that EVERY place that has tried that approach has collapsed, a complete social failure? In what universe is imitating failure a sensible solution?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 12/29/15 08:04 PM
All of the grid tie inverters clock on the line voltage and when the clock goes away, so does the output.
Posted By: geoff in UK Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 12/29/15 09:27 PM
Here is how it works for domestic users in UK.
The panels and invertor must be installed by a registered installer in order to qualify for the so called "Feed in Tariff". This is a government subsidised payment administered by the normal energy supply companies.
The output of the invertor is metered and is connected into the house panel via a standard MCB. This meter is read quarterly and passed to the energy supply company with which it is registered. (This does not have to be the same supplier as your normal supply, though I can see no advantage in having them different).
The Feed in tariff is paid to the householder shortly after submitting the generation meter reading. It comprises two elements, a basic payment per unit generated plus an allowance for the amount uploaded to the grid. This latter amount is assumed to be 50% of what is generated. Obviously there is no way that either the consumer or supplier can know what this amount actually is.
The normal supply meter is read and billed as normal. It cannot run backwards, being the modern electronic type, though not a smart type in my case, but just shows "ER" (for error) when power is being exported.
The overall economics are quite attractive at present, though the FiT has been reduced as installation costs fall, and there are threats to make more drastic cuts soon. Existing contracts are locked in for 20 years from commissioning.
My 3.5kW system cost about £4,500 and I estimate it is worth at least £700 per year to me in cash income plus savings on my supply bill.
Posted By: shortcircuit Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/03/16 03:42 PM
Solar is booming here in Massachusetts. With the 30% federal income tax break, which was extended for another 5 years last week, and the Solar Renewable Energy Credits (SREC's) coming in at $200-$300 per 1000-KWH produced, there is work all over the place. The average 5000watt system will produce about 6 SREC's per year and about $12000 over the allowed 10 year Mass SREC program. Payback on your investment is calculated at 4-7 years.

There aren't enough electricians here to do the work. Massachusetts requires a 1-1 ratio on licensed electrician to helpers. Installing panels and racking requires a license. Guys are starting at $30-$35 hour plus incentives. Some are pulling in 6 figures with overtime.

With battery storage on the horizon, solar will not sunset IMO. It will continue to get more affordable. Oil continued to get feed in tariffs even when it was highly profitable. Oil and Gas Power needs to be replaced by the Power of the Sun to save our planet.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/03/16 07:45 PM
The question is whether this business would survive without massive infusions of tax payer cash.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/03/16 09:18 PM
I have always held the position that any kind of tax credit, rebate or refund program is just a mechanism to convince you to make what is (in reality) the wrong decision.

If something is a good idea...you'll subscribe to it without any sweetener.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/03/16 10:45 PM
Greg:
Personally, I feel that without incentives the solar industry would face a massive reduction in 'solar companies'.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/04/16 07:27 PM
Well, as the news link I started with made clear, the reductions happened instantly, at the first hint of trouble.

There's a business lesson in this. What happens to you when the rules change in mid-stream? Or, worse, after the game is over?

Imagine .... what if you completed a job, and two years later the customer was able to walk into your bank and get the money back- AND keep the work?

That's exactly what's happening here. Systems were sold, based upon a fare structure that supported the sale. Now, years later, the rates change - turning a 'money maker' for the homeowner into an extra expense ..... an expense they can't eliminate. Any remaining construction loans still have to be paid off. Any service issues and warranties are up for grabs, as the vendor is now gone.

I could say "I told you so," but that would suggest that I'm happy with this outcome. I'm not. This sort of outrage is, alas, far too common these days. I don't think it can be avoided as long as we attempt to 'steer' economic choices with goals that are not economic themselves. Adam Smith's "invisible hand" can't work in handcuffs.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/13/16 02:50 AM
Reno:
I have to stir this pot a little......
You said....
"Installing a micro-inverter is so easy, it can be done in minutes, by most anyone, without interrupting household supply. The only question is whether the meter will run backwards or not.

Separate meters? Simply not possible, when the micro-inverter ties directly to a breaker in the common panel. There is NO separate panel needed for them. The breaker is all the disconnect you need."

Are you talking about one panel, and one micro? Like a 235 watt panel & micro going straight to the existing service panel with a backfed 15 amp, 2 pole cb??

Please enlighten me a little.


Posted By: renosteinke Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/13/16 04:26 AM
You're not stirring the pot at all .... I suppose (considering how new solar is), I ought to make sure everyone knows what I'm talking about.

We all understand the conventional way to do solar .. a bunch of panels feeding an inverter, then there being some manner of tying the generated power into the main service of the house.

That's all now as obsolete as the Model A Ford. Micro-inverters are here.

"Micro-inverter" actually refers to an entire unit, of which the inverter is but a small part. Let me describe it ...

Each solar panel has, as part of it, a small inverter. The power is changed into AC right up there, at the panel. Usually, these panels are capable of generating only a few amps each.

The "output" wires of several such assemblies are connected together right at the array, and a single, small cable is run from the array to ANY panel in the house. These arrays are usually limited to a total of 20 amps.

When the cable reaches the panel - and it can be any electrical panel - it is simply landed on an ordinary, dedicated breaker. These breakers are often single-pole (120v) breakers. The generated power is backfed directly into the panel.

It's up to the PoCo meter to know when there's more power going 'out' than 'in,' and adjust accordingly. Under the original "net metering" laws, the meter simply ran backwards (with the limitation that the PoCo would never actually pay out if you made more than you used). When I left Nevada in 2009, this was the law there.

Safety? These assemblies are UL listed. They operate only if there is PoCo power present, Through some technical magic, somehow all the panels generate AC that is synchronized with each other, as well as the PoCo. These are among the conditions of the UL Listing.

That's ALL there is to it. Harry Homeowner simply need buy an assembly, run a wire, and land it in the panel. Period. That's why I say regulatory approaches are doomed to fail.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/13/16 07:21 PM
The 'magic' of which you speak is actually a relatively simple thing.

The microinverter only works when it has something to synchronize to. As long as the Utility is present, it will synchronize to that and convert the solar DC power to AC. Since each microinverter is synchronizing to the same thing they end up being synchronized with each other as well.

One of the best safety features of this design is that once the power to the structure is cut, the PV panels stop outputting power since they have lost their synchronizing signal. Under the older system there were a lot of live DC cables running around on the roof ahead of the inverter that the firefighters would have no way to shut down.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/15/16 06:42 AM
The micro inverters I made the mistake of investing in had a NEMA 5-15 plug on them and you just plugged them into a convenient receptacle. Lowes was supposed to sell them
Unfortunately, nobody did and the stock dropped to pennies.
Posted By: LarryC Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/15/16 07:04 PM
Quote
As long as the Utility is present, it will synchronize to that and convert the solar DC power to AC.


Will they sync to a UPS running on batteries?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/15/16 08:13 PM
I wondered that myself. If you had the right transfer equipment and tickled the collectors with an inverter, I think it should work. I am not sure a regular UPS would work tho because it might see the solars as being the utility and shutting down, starting a painful oscillation.
I bought the stock but I never bought a plug in micro inverter setup to test the theory.
You could test it without actually involving the utility power at all.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/15/16 09:51 PM
Greg:
Following the comments from you, and Reno, you guys are talking about micros that have a 120 volt nominal AC output, correct??

I have only seen 240 volt nominal micros, that are common on solar installs.

I guess if you had a 240 volt UPS, and a compliant way to connect it as a 'utility' source, it should trick the inverter to provide solar power?? What say you??

Posted By: LarryC Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/15/16 10:59 PM
Quote
I guess if you had a 240 volt UPS, and a compliant way to connect it as a 'utility' source, it should trick the inverter to provide solar power?? What say you??


Actual utility feeds UPS. UPS output feeds subpanel. Micro inverters connected to UPS subpanel along with "vital loads". Vital loads include battery bank charger for initial UPS.

This assumes UPS can safely support loads when utility power is available and PV is not available. Basically PV powers the loads not utility. Excess power goes into batteries, not backfeeding the utility.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/16/16 01:21 AM
Greg has pointed out another problem endemic to the solar industry: manufacturers vanishing. This would be a natural part of business development - how many car makers have disappeared? - but it's made much worse with the government raising hopes and expectations.

The governmental involvement also gives a major steroid shot to the scam artists. "Solyndra" is perhaps the best know such scam.

"Micros" are listed in both 120v and 240v designs. I am not aware of any LISTED units having simple plugs - they have to be wired to a dedicated breaker for back feeding. At least, that's what the instructions say!

I have no way of knowing how these units- or any other listed solar system- will interact with UPS systems, or other generation systems.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 01/16/16 02:50 AM
This is the old thread

https://www.electrical-contractor.n..._grid_connect_solar_pane.html#Post203047
Posted By: sparky Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 02/04/16 02:16 PM
Here's a shot of an install we did last fall>
[Linked Image from i104.photobucket.com]
This is a micro inverter pedestal w/ 'gross generation meter' , feeds into the main panel

The layout is via a local solar guru btw, we do our best to meet art 690 , etc.

The poco has their own GGM contingent who sign off

~S~
Posted By: sparky Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 02/04/16 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by renosteinke


I have no way of knowing how these units- or any other listed solar system- will interact with UPS systems, or other generation systems.



They anti-island REno

i have no idea how they discriminate a poco sine wave from a ups, or genny for that matter

~S~
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 02/04/16 02:50 PM
Wow, a blast from the past....sparky is in the house!!

It's been a long drought my friend.

Posted By: sparky Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 02/04/16 02:57 PM
Apologies Hot One

anyways, the green machine has got me .....guess it was only a matter of time....:)

~S~
Posted By: sparky Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 02/05/16 01:03 AM
More fat for the OP conflagration if you will gentlemen ....

I hail from a small state, Vermont. It's so 'blue' one could probably pick it out from Pluto...

This means anything 'green' gets a hoof in the door easily here.

Traditionally we've been inundated with 'solar guys' , who appear shortly after most federal funds are sent to our beloved energy nazi's ,,,,Efficiency Vermont, most of which disappear quicker than sh*t thru a goose when it;s dried up...:lol:

Short version, i highly suspect most of these folks could be considered clinically unstable in any other venue given the stark cognitive dissonance they project

But you'd have to be in the trade , and witness the collusive elements behind the ROI involved

This isn't a capitalist venture , it does NOT stand on it's hind legs w/o a handout/up

Worse, they come looking, knocking on doors......all paid via that little 3% 'efficiency premium' on our GMP lectric bills

I'm hard to find (the Jehovahs have given up) yet these sorts KNOW i'm an electrician , and drag me out on my porch for a meet/greet...

I'm slowly being convinced that 'ill retire with some sort of solar powered company baseball cap here while i drool in art 690 .....

~Sparky~

Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 02/05/16 09:23 PM
~s~:

I have only seen one solar 'solicitor' knocking at my door.

We have 'solar snipers' that are in the big box stores, on the outside of 'Best Buys' (Electronics), and at the local minor league baseball field.

Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Solar: The Ghost of Carter - 02/14/16 05:59 PM
FWIW, resi solar jobs have been pouring in for plan review and permit release.

The 'grace period' drop dead date for 2011 NEC ends March 6, 2016. The rush is on.

© ECN Electrical Forums