I was just talking to another EC about some of his jobs. He said they did a new home wiring job for a celebrity and it took 3 years to wire it. Holy Cow! I've been on some big customs for a few months but 3 years is crazy. Got any
good customer gone wild excess stories?
Such 'tempos' are typical of hospital jobs.
The issues are never about our craft... Everything turns on how quickly the hospital executives can make a decision.
Not uncommonly, EACH decision is kicked up to the Board of Management -- meaning that all of the doctors have a say.
Such meetings are typically held once a month.
So, the entire job is start-stop-start-stop.
The most "over wired" house I have seen is the one I did for me. There is about a half mile of THHN/THWN, just in the back yard. There is pipe going everywhere and I pulled in a lot of spares.
Once I had the yard torn up for the pool, why not go nuts
We do sub work for city financed rehabs for homeowners that can't afford to pay. Even the tiniest houses I mean 800 square feet with gas heat gas range gas hot water and no AC they still get a 200 amp service. The last one we did had seven breakers when we left.
As luck would have it ...
I'm re-wiring a house that comes in around 900 sq. ft., and has gas for the heat, the hot water, and the range. Nothing fancy at all. Load calculation comes in at less than 60 as the house stands, and 75 amps with air conditioning added.
Yet, at every turn I was "advised" to put in a 200-amp service. Even City Hall pushed it. "The panel hardly costs anything more, and it can't hurt," I was told.
Only one such adviser brought up the greater number of circuits available in a larger panel. Mind you, the house originally had six, and time had seen folks cobble on five more. What make this point relevant is that this same person didn't like my plan to use sub-panels for 'circuit heavy' locations, like the kitchen.
Folks here will know that I tend to 'over-engineer' a bit, and I seem to excel at finding a more complex way to do every task. Yet, here I am, in the odd position of being told I'm not doing enough!
There's the other side to this coin as well: hackwork. The same folks who insist on the 200-A service will use undersize wire, skimp on staples, use the cheapest plastic boxes, and flimsy devices. They think nothing of running SO cord in the walls. They'll argue with you over your choice of wire nuts.
In my case, at least most folks shut up when I produce my Masters' card.
They might want to put in a spa and that can get you up into the 150 or 200a range pretty quick. The little plug ins are 50a and a bigger one with a big heater gets closer to 80a.
We hardly ever see anything smaller than 200 amp services here, in fact I can't even remember the last time that I saw a new 100 amp service except one that was put in to power a roadside sign. There just doesn't seem to be a cost justification, not to mention the fact that our POCOs charge the same connection fee regardless.
Of course, services for traffic signals and CATV power supplies are different.
Our most predominant POCO, Dominion, actually provides the meter bases and I don't they don't even offer 100 amp versions for underground services. We're getting 200 amps at the meter whether it is needed or not.
Granted, electric heat, hot water and ranges are quite common here.
The Pocos have realized that it makes absolutely no sense to haul lesser Service feeders around.
They stock only one size of wire -- and all of the do dads that go with it.
The heavy-up market is slowly winding down.
The standard residential drop is 200a, or so they say but it looks like 2ga aluminum to me.
When a guy I knew went to a 400a main, they were still reluctant to change that drop.
FPL gives you the meter can and 200a is the standard. (wire bending space for 4/0) That still does not affect what size service disconnect you put in the house.
Greg, the way it works is that the Poco has residential wire crews and commercial wire crews.
The residential trucks are stocked with one wire size, period.
Poco's do not take 400A Services as a true indication of load.
First off, they consider them 320A Services -- for load calculations -- at the worst.
But, in most situations, the heavy-up occurred because the home went over 160A -- and calculates out to, say 210A.
For such a Service drop, the Poco is still going to use the same conductors. If the meter readings establish that the true load is way high, then the Poco m a y bump conductors.
But, they don't stock the next size up. That would be a special order. 350kCMIL is the next size bump. (Actually, a 336kCMIL is the Poco favorite.) The intermediate sizes are simply not stocked.
Pocos are not in the feeder conductor warehousing business.
My problem with using the meter averages is it does not take into effect peak loads.
Things like spas may not be used very often but it is likely that when they do you might have a house full of kids, the oven may be going, you are using lots of hot water and there may be a load of towels in the dryer ... then someone gets cold and the wife turns on 15kw of toaster wire heat.
Of course every TV, computer and light in the house is on.
Greg...
The Poco -- for Service Drops -- figures on their experience -- and on the fact that such conductors are in Free Air.
3/0 XHHW-2 (90c) Aluminum is rated 275A in Free Air -- continuous duty. And that has to be a conservative rating, to boot.
The cyclic nature of hot tubs means that they don't run loaded up for 180 minutes of continuous draw. Further, the hotter the weather, the less they draw. Cold weather for the load also means more cooling for the Service Drop.
BTW, I never hear of any hot tub using heat pumps. For southern climates, such devices would do the trick for not a whole lot of cash.
For you never see patrons of the hot tub running out in the ice and snow to use them; and that's the only time they wouldn't pencil out.
The triplex drops here are #2 or maybe #1. They are nowhere close to 3/0
We only use the hot tub in the winter. I also don't pay to heat it until we use it so the heater can easily be called a continuous load. With a 11kw heater I still only get 10 degrees an hour. I could easily be starting with 65 degree water.
Since I plumbed the pool solars so I can switch them to the hot tub, that is less of a problem.
Victoria is an electric heat primary with some gas and oil too. 200 is pretty much the standard service size but few are over 60 amps of calculated load.
On the 75 KVA pole top transformer are 3 skinny houses, a duplex and a triplex. I think there is a 5 plex on it too but not certain the service to that building is from the back or the front. BC hydro sized resi services by the heat load and pretty much ignores the rest.
The 3 skinny houses are 100's the duplex and the triplex are 200. all Have electric heat and some split with gas. The utlity says the 75 KVA transformer can run %100 overload for 6 to 12 hours. I think they drop #1 or #2 aluminum for a 200 amp service and 266 for a 400 amp
Single family resi ranges from 200-400 amps (320/400). A few McMansions pushed the envelope for 'full 400', and at least 3 have 600 single phase.
The last townhouse subdivision was 150 amp each. The 22 unit condo bldgs have 800, 3 phase, with 100 to each condo.
The condos are off of either a 300 KVA pad, or two bldgs off of a 500KVA pad. Townhouses are BUD, 8 units to a BUD xfr.
As to the drops, '397' is common for 400-600 amp pole pigs.
Some old drops are 6 Al triplex!
The norm here for the pole pig is 25KVA for one house, 37KVA for 2 and 50KVA for 3.
These days we don't see 37KVA transformers much so if it blows you are probably getting a 50.
Greg:
If JCP&L did what your POCO does, all would be well. But then they would be crying for a rate increase.
My neighborhood had ten (10) houses on one really old 25KVA, which was 'good' when the houses were not all built, and some were only summer homes without AC.
Last year I did my most recent residence 2100 sq ft I roughed it in 2 days by myself. 4 bed two and half baths.
I feel like I'm overwiring a smaller place when I put in more than 2 or 3 230 V general purpose circuits (or maybe even 1 in a studio apartment) and 2 appliance circuits (dishwasher and washing machine)...
Recently I wired a large-ish condo (4 bed 1 bath) with 14 circuits... boy that felt like overkill! 7 in the kitchen alone, 150 m (almost 500') of flexible conduit for the kitchen renovation.
With 230/400 V you can get by with a rather small number of circuits in an average household.
Supplies aren't awfully large in Vienna either. Well into the 1970s 25 A 1ph was common (5.5 kVA max. load) and even today anything exceeding 35 A 3ph (roughly 24 kVA) is rare. On the other hand, the electric range is usually the largest load, followed by the dishwasher (those go up to 3.5 kW). AC is highly uncommon, except for the occasional portable, mini-split or window unit, all of which are content with a 16 A 1ph circuit (230 V 2w 1ph).
For feeder sizing, code requires 18 kVA per unit (electric cooking, gas or other hot water and heating) or 22 for a "fully electric household" (electric hot water). I think electric heating supplies have to be calculated according to the actual load.
If you cook with gas, you can even get by with 20 A 1ph in old places, although you'd better avoid running washing machine and dishwasher at the same time. Still more than the measly 15 A you get in Italy!
John,
I sent in pictures a long time ago about a house that was very over wired. In fact one of the pictures I sent in was given a caption of (Wires installed with an iron) or something like that. Each wire was run perfectly parallel with the next one. It was out here in cyberspace somewhere. Also each room had it's own video interface by the door. You can look outside through any of the numerous cameras, answer the phone, set t-stat temps,and even go out on the net. It took the EC about 1 year and a half to rough in.
Harold:
Yes, I have those pics on a flash drive in my Vo-Tech bag!!
Neat? Yes!
Hopefully, it was a profitable job!
Norcal,
Thank you for linking them up. This way, I don't have to post them all over again.
John,
Yes, I believe he did make a tidy sum, that was back then when you could still make a good profit. Also this house was in a very high priced neighborhood.
Your quite welcome, have to use a search engine to find them...
Beautiful work.
That EC spent a long , long time on that job. He was meticulous about every thing he did. Unfortunately, that was one of the last jobs that he did that way. By that I mean, I saw him about 6-15 months later in a different town and I always exclaimed how much I loved that job. He said he couldn't do that kind of work anymore because no one is willing to pay for it. Everyone is now about the cost and they don't care how good/bad it looks. SO in order to be competitive, he has to hurry up his work to make ends meet and that fine wiring is no more.