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Posted By: sparky66wv Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 02:45 AM
Relatives of mine are trying to choose, with my help, a properly sized genset or genny and transfer switch(s) for back-up since the aged grandparents are living there complete with life-support and powered chairs.

Minimum, they want on the "EM" circuits:

2 Lift chairs @ 130W each

1 Breathing Machine with a nameplate rating of 4A 120V (480W)

1 Refrigerator, 600W

1 Freezer 600W

1 Water Pump 5A min, 240V

The clincher:

1 furnace 240V 35A min, 46A max. (unsure due to lack of model number versus a generic nameplate)

If possible add:

2 lighting circuits to include Living Room and Bedroom of elders (might get lucky and they're on the same circuit, but unlikely)

1 Water Heater (4800W) (Hah!)

My figures, 12KVA to 18+KVA, but this is a guesstimation big time.

How much diversity can I count on?

How small can we go and not have the genny stall when the furnace kicks on?

They originally had hoped to only spend $2K, but I dashed those hopes as soon as they said they wanted the electric furnace on the genset as well.

Hoo boy!

Would they be better off with a 200A transfer switch, and transfer everything, or isolated circuits? Or, a genset with auto-transfer (they kinda like that idea...)

They are looking at what Northern has to offer, and I told them I would investigate the possibilities (read: post on ECN and yell "help!")

Help!

[Linked Image]
Posted By: ga.sparky56 Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 02:59 AM
Virgil,I once helped my nephew (heat and ac contractor) install a 4 ton heat pump,don't remember amperage draw, But generator company brought 3 gen. before they got it right. It would kill a 15kw when it tried to start, It killed a 20kw when the heat strips came on. A30 kw allowed it to start and run ok. The heat pump was the only thing on it.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 03:04 AM
66:
18 KW, with mental math real quick.
20 KW is probably the "standard" available, either thru supplier, or the big box store.

Start-up of the furnace blower, and water pump, with frig & freezer, and the items you listed make me lean to 20KW.

If you have an Orange Apron store by you, they have gensets (propane or natural gas)
(Complete with transfer switch)
The "Electrical Advertiser" also has gensets available.

For what it's worth, I think your 2K figure was blown out the window.
John
Posted By: txsparky Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 03:50 AM
Virg,
[Linked Image] A quick price check on a 20kw turned up this:

Onan standby generator
47-GGFE/1858
LP Propane System
MSRP: $17,884.00
YOUR PRICE
$13,995.00
FREE SHIPPING IN THE
CONTINENTAL USA!

Onan standby generator
42-GGFE/1825
Natural Gas System
MSRP: $17,884.00
YOUR PRICE
$13,995.00
FREE SHIPPING IN THE
CONTINENTAL USA!

at least the shipping is free [Linked Image]
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 03:55 AM
Find web sites for outfits like Kohler and Onan for local-rep contacts. They do load calcs all the time. The size of genset for 1ø might be somewhat more expensive than a 3ø version. The hitch is motor starting capability. 1ø motors are a little more difficult, too. Modern permanent-magnet excitation helps out some.

Put together as complete a load list as you can—reps will probably have some questions about anticipated duty and load diversity. And things like “just how automatic does it all need to be?” It doesn’t sound like a legally required system so that may simplify things a bit.

It’s a long shot—reps may know of some surplus equipment, but 3ø sets may be more common in that rating.
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 03:56 AM
Ahhh... Don't worry.

The $2K was the price THEY said. Not me.

I have given them nothing but an hourly rate quote so far.

The materials are their problem.

They were just "hoping" it would be in the $2K range. That was even after my wife warned them that a 200A transfer switch would cost $750, they had initially wanted a 200A genset (for $2K!!!).

[Linked Image]

I just want to insure that they have enough Umph without spending too much and crying "overkill".

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 01-13-2003).]
Posted By: nesparky Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 06:06 AM
try this linkhttp://www.powerprotection.org/powergeneration/homewattage.shtml
Also take a look at thier home page about fuel cells.
may be this would be something interesting inthe future?
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 06:17 AM
I was thinking of a 20 KW size also - having seen the projected / possible loads; however, just what will be running at the same time?

Also, the thought of a 20 KW Genny coupled to a 30 HP Prime Mover is - in simple terms "Tim Taylor Overkill" for a small Residential setup! [Linked Image]

Not that it wouldn't be cool! I would do it, but I also have a "touch of the 'ol Tim Taylor" in me!
The Neighbors would just love hearing that 30 HP Diesel Prime Mover chuggin' all night long!
(I would most likely use a Diesel Prime Mover - once again, the "Tim Taylor" Syndrome [Linked Image]... although, a Gasoline Prime Mover would be fun too!).

Hefner (as in Hugh Hefner - Playboy Magazine) has two standby gensets at the "Playboy Mansion West" (Belair, CA).
The original first one is a 750 KW Diesel Genny.
The newest is a 1 MW or 1.5 MW Genny.
These get plenty of use during the Raging Parties thrown at the place!
The PoCo cannot upgrade the original 4160 VAC Primary Feeders (something like a 100 amp circuit???), so when the KW load in this area gets high (and corresponding Party-Personnel get high [Linked Image]... ), the Breaker trips at the yard, leaving the customers Sans Ready Killowatt!
(Credits to Virgil, for the "Sans" term!)

Now when the breaker trips, everyone else loses power, but Party keeps on Raging!
All thanks to Standby Gensets!

This story, along with others, are more indepth and kind of interresting!
Maybe sometime when I have an urge, I'll post more about the Mansion.
Sorry, no naked women stories!

Scott s.e.t.
Posted By: txsparky Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 06:23 AM
Scott,are you pleading the 5th? [Linked Image]

Theres alot to be said for having gas....er appliances that is.I can get by on a 5000watt and the only thing I won't have is a/c.


[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 01-14-2003).]
Posted By: Trainwire Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 11:38 AM
Funny how all of a sudden generators are all the rage.

I am currently installing two brand new 25KW 240volt 3 phase desiel generators in our train. We use them to power the kitchen in the dining car,and the parlor car.

They were $15000 each, in a railroad grade box (read whacking heavy)with remote starts.

I really think you would be money ahead to find some sort of standby heat source, A ventless propane fire place for instance, as well as abandon the hot water heater. It might be that if you contact the power company, they might work with you if they realize there are "life issues" on that particular curcuit, and make restoration of power a priority. Which would make what you have to tie to the generator much less, just the breathing machine, chairs and some lights.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

TW
Posted By: Scotts Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 06:25 PM
TW,

As I was reading this that is exaclty what I was going to say. Except the part about installing the generators in the railroad cars.

The main question is how long do you expect the power to be out and what do you need during that time. The key word here is need.

Scott
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 07:14 PM
Ahhh, Trainwire has brought up an area which I have some Qs about! I hope you don't mind me tossing Railroad related questions out.
(some parts relate to Generators and UPS / back-up power systems).
If this turns into an "Attempted Thread Jack" situation, I'll begin a new thread (or resort to direct E-mail contact).

Anyhow, on to the subjects!

Quote

I am currently installing two brand new 25KW 240volt 3 phase desiel
generators in our train. We use them to power the kitchen in the dining
car,and the parlor car.

Are you installing the Genny(s) in a Locomotive? Maybe in place of an original Steam Generator? (or is this a new HEP setup?).

If yes, what type of Loco is receiving the HEP package?

Does the RR you work for have any Locos with HEP packages?

Do you have experience/knowledge of units with HEP?
I am not too familiar with ALCO Diesel / Electric equipment - more an EMD and GE "Based" person! (all the major carriers in my area use EMD and GE primarily, only a handful of ALCOs dawn the motive power databases, they are normally hidden in yards - like for Hump Operations or Classification).

What's your take on the GE "Genesis" series Dash 8 units with HEP packages?
More precisely, P40 Dash 8 (dash 8 408) and P42 units.
What is the rating of the Stand-Alone HEP Genny / Prime Mover? These were the first units I experienced with a separate HEP prime mover! I was stunned when the Loco(s) stopped at a station and the main Prime Mover idled down while the cars had steady AC Power!

I was "Raised" on the EMD F40 PH, so prior to the Dash 8 experience, I had only dealt with HEP coupled to the Main Prime Mover - hence no idle down at stations / other stops (Main Prime Mover ran at steady 720 or 900 RPMs. For those thinking this is slow, this is high end RPMs for that Diesel Motor! Since it's a 2 stroke 16 cylinder beast, 900 RPMs sounds like 9,000 RPMs!!!).

Any experiences with EMD's newer units (F59 PHI to be exact). This Animal also uses a separate HEP package, plus the Main Prime Mover is a 4 stroker. Traction Motors are still DC type - and driven with DC (apparently for Passenger Duty reasons).

Outside the Drawbar Zone [Linked Image], I would like to get information regarding the Signal Department's stuff!

Out here, the major carriers have just about converted all Main line Subdivisions to CTC.
BNSF finally changed over the last remaining section where Santa Fe's "Rule 251" was used on a large portion of Double Track with Sidings. Trains that were overtaken went into the hole manually!

The Blocks were part ABS and TWC, and traffic ran one direction on a given track (no crossovers, like found in CTC territory!).

This is an interesting subject, so let me know if I should explain more detailed.

At Relay "houses" for Signals and Street Crossings, the power system was roughly a 120 VDC system - driven by an array of Series Connected Liquid Acid Batteries, and charged by a 5 KVA Stepdown Transformer.
Not sure if this continues here. Any ideas where I could find information about this?

Nearly all Districts use AFO for Street Crossing control / traffic sensing. Looking for detailed info on not only AFO, but control techniques per signal equipment.

Have noticed a few older Branch lines with jointed rail (as opposed to CWR), use a system that does not act like AFO!
It appears to be tripped into action, then tripped out.
Gates come down a good 2 minutes before traffic occupies the street crossing, then remain down long after the last car has cleared.

It's like they are set for 90 MPH @ 30 Seconds! The Max Speed on these Branches is 10 MPH, so street traffic piles up big time!!!
Not to mention when some clown cuts a rail joint jumper - thus setting the signals into error status (gates down for days!), the traffic really collects!

P.S. Abbreviations mean:
"AFO" = Audio Frequency Overlay,
"HEP" = Head-End Power,
"CTC" = Centralized Traffic Control,
"CWR" = Continuous Welded Rail

So many Qs', such little time! [Linked Image]

Scott s.e.t.
Posted By: Trainwire Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/14/03 08:38 PM
Scott: OK How much time and space do you have? [Linked Image]
Can you say "threadjack" boys and girls [Linked Image]

Our Locomotives ARE steam generators!

See www.strasburgrailroad.com
see also http://www.staufferdiesel.com/railgenspecs.html
for the generators that I am putting in.
The generators live underneath their respective cars. There are all kinds of interlocks and relays because either generator can power the trainline, or a single generator can power both the parlor car and the dining car, or a landline can power the train, (when we are sitting in the station of course [Linked Image]), The load calculations are very similar to what WV was dealing with. Fridges and hot water heaters and ovens etc etc etc. [Linked Image]

You sure of the 120 vdc in the relay houses? I'm pretty sure it's all only 12. Or at least the ones that my friends at the amtrak signal shop build are. In ours there is 235 AH nicad cells. The feds require that the gates be "held clear" for seven days with no ac power applied.
Any way without making this too long, or making it into a railfan BB, I personally don't think Sparky wv's genset needs to be as big as he was proposing this morning.

TW
PS, I would be more than happy to tell you what I know, which isn't much, by email or another thread, out of respect for WV.


edited to add ps
[This message has been edited by Trainwire (edited 01-14-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Trainwire (edited 01-14-2003).]
Posted By: Ron Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/15/03 12:41 AM
In a residential application, my suggestion is turn off all items not wanted during an outage. Check to be sure the occupants will tollerate the items being off for 24 hours. During those 24 hours, place an ampprobe with a max function on the incomming feeders, and vwola, you get the exact surge capacity needed. The standby rating of the generator, could be determined by watching the meter for a half hour or so, and determine tha actual demand.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/15/03 01:17 AM
Trainwire,

I'll start a new thread about this RR stuff.

Virgil,

Sorry to get all carried away and force this thread to fly to Cuba [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Scott s.e.t.
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Sizing Generators - 12KVA enough? - 01/15/03 02:07 AM
How dare you threadjack my topic!

</double standard>

-Virgil, the Threadjack King

[Linked Image]
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