ECN Forum
Posted By: sparkyinak Hurricane Sandy - 10/30/12 08:30 AM
While we think of our family and friends during this storm, lets not forget our fellow sparktarians and their families on the east coast too. It appears that New Jersey is getting the blunt of it however this super storm as they been calling it is churning up Lake Michigan which is hundreds of miles away.

Once the storm passes, there's the clean up and the rebuild which is also dangerous. Keep them in your thoughts and prayers. If you here from any of them, sound off
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 10/30/12 07:08 PM
From the Jersey Shore area:
My wife and i had to evacuate before the storm,living on the mainland side of Barnegat bay & on a lagoon.

We are staying with friends 'inland' in Toms River & are safe.

As to our home, I may be able to get back Wed IF the road is passable. We had reported house fires, numerous homes floating off of foundations,trees,power lines, etc down. Transformers exploding, substations under water & who knows what.

Thanks to all for the concerns hope all others are OK. I'll be back astime permits.

Posted By: geoff in UK Re: Hurricane Sandy - 10/30/12 08:14 PM
Seeing some horrendous pictures here. Hope everyone is safe.
Posted By: Admin Re: Hurricane Sandy - 10/30/12 09:56 PM
Central Long Island here...

Power, yes, Telephone, Cable & Internet, no....

Long lines outside 7-11s to get a Cup of coffee here... many in the area have no power. Many trees down on powerlines, houses and blocking neighborhood roads.

No complaints from me, it could be much worse.

Bill
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 10/30/12 10:08 PM
General situation is extensive damage and floodwaters are still preventing access. As far as Iknow, my home is still standing. but may be flooded. Good thing is my wife, family & I are safe, as are most of my friends.

No complaints from me. Be back as time allows.
Posted By: ANNEMARIE Re: Hurricane Sandy - 10/31/12 12:33 AM
we are thinking of you on the east coast ive seen the pictures on TV cant imagine anything like that it must be truly awfull keep safe annemarie
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/01/12 02:15 AM
Update: 3'+ thru garage/laundry; crawl space full; probably 1/2"in living areas. Hopefully the HW floors survive?

I'm a very thankful soul, after a quick tour of my neighborhood. The damages and outright destruction is not east to describe, and the TV or pics don't show it all!

Thank you to all, I'm a lucky one! Should have electric back by Nov.6 or sooner per First Energy
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/01/12 03:21 AM
Just posted to of todays pics in
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/01/12 04:00 AM
Looks pretty gnarly. It took 3 feet of water or more to carry that boat across the road. That was on the mainland side? These hurricanes are pretty nasty business. I am glad you seemed to make out fairly well. I hope you can save that floor.
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/02/12 02:25 PM
has anyone heard from Les? (LK) ?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/05/12 01:10 AM
I'm back (sort of) Hard to believe but I called Verizon (Fios) Sat and a service tech was here at 10:00AM today.

Still lacking electric and hot water. Got a roof over my head, four walls, and uninjured. There are many, many others that are in real, real bad shape. Destruction is mind bogling to say the least.

As to Les (LK) I have not heard from him in at least 6 months. He is in Middlesex County, which has serious electric issues.

Gas lines, coffee lines, line lines, but it will get better as the days go forward.

BTW, there's rumor of a nor'easter coming for Tuesday!!
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/05/12 09:40 AM
All good there John,
Great to see you came out of this one OK.

I'm a tad worried about Les though, he hasn't posted here in ages and after losing his wife a while back, I don't think he ever really came back from that, although that isn't really for me to pass judgement on that, I'd just like to know that he is safe and well wink

It's a funny thing, (although very few people are actually laughing about this), some people did have power and I had heard (even over here) that some people that did have a power supply were offering free of charge at their gates, a cord and often a multi-board for folks to charge their phones.
It is things like this that instill faith in human-kind, when it all turns to crap, at least people are out there willing to help, without holding their hand out asking for remuneration.
I hope that a lot of people, because of this disaster, have become closer to thier neighbours, or at least found out who they were.

Best of luck over there, folks, my thoughts and prayers are with you all.
And please guys, keep us updated, when you can. smile
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/05/12 03:07 PM
John, any guesses about when you get power back? That seems to be the biggest casualty after the storm is over and the water recedes. After Charley we had friends without power for 2 months. I hope they get you back soon.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/05/12 07:45 PM
Greg:
Thanks for the thoughts!!
Yes, there are people that are 'helping'; someone knocked on our door last evening bringing hot food, and would not accept any type of donation.

Yes, I offer 120 volt to my neighbors to charge any devices, and a few of us are sharing gas runs for the gens.

All in all, the 'things' can be replaced. Life cannot.

I'll poke around & see if I can find Les.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/05/12 08:14 PM
Quote
a few of us are sharing gas runs for the gens


Yup they called it "feeding the monster" in Punta Gorda.

Is the state looking into their building codes yet? After the storms of the 90s and 2000s Florida looked at what failed and tightened up our codes. They may be taking it a bit too far now but the basic idea is sound.
These are basically performance standards that depend on engineering stamps but they have settled on some basic designs.

I am hearing that a lot of the houses on the shore were originally built as summer cottages, perhaps with spotty code enforcement and it is fairly recently that they became primary residences. I am not sure how much of that is true tho.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/05/12 10:32 PM
I just spoke to Les on the phone, and he is OK and well.

I have his landline if anyone wants it via PM. He indicated he will pop in here soon.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/05/12 11:06 PM
We haven't heard from the Caper either. (Harold)
Last time he was on was 10/29.

Did Boonton get whacked?
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/06/12 12:01 PM
+1 John, smile
Thanks for getting Les on the phone.
I'll sleep better tonight knowing he is OK.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/06/12 02:34 PM
I received four short emails from Harold. He is OK, and has partial internet access at one of his towns. (11/4/12)

He indicated he is busy, and OK!

I got a new mandatory evacuation call 10PM last nite to be out by 6:00PM Tuesday 11/06/12. Nor'easter on the way.

I'll be around time permitting.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/06/12 05:07 PM
Not to quibble over a technicality .... but what's this talk about 'hurricane ' Sandy?

Wasn't it only a tropical storm by the time it hit the coast?

Well, you got your wake-up call.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/06/12 05:48 PM
Technically it was a post tropical cyclone but if you were on the south Jersey shore it was a Cat 1 hurricane.
The real issue was the surge tide. When you have winds gusting in the 70s and a rolling surf several feet high in your yard even a salty old dog like me will say that is a hurricane.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/06/12 09:34 PM
Greg:
The hair splitting over hurricane or trop storm is from the insurance companies I believe.

I hear it was a hurricane when it hit the coastline and then was downgraded to a TS. It had many names, 'Frankenstorm'; 'The Perfect Storm'; 'Super Storm' and many more that I can't post here.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/07/12 12:05 AM
That may just be a New Jersey thing but here, as soon as it is a named storm, it stays a named storm as far as insurance goes. We are all hurricane junkies here and our news guys get very specific when they talk about storms. Sandy technically stopped being a "tropical storm" when it interacted with the cold front and the configuration of the eye wall changed but if you are in it, there is really no difference.
I agree it is also splitting hairs to talk about the difference between 74 MPH wind and 75 MPH wind. Again, when that 2x4 is whizzing by your head, it looks about the same. wink
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/07/12 07:44 PM
Greg:
Radio debate this AM is related to the insurance co's using a 'hurricane deductable' on the homeowners coverage. Sounded like a clause that increases a deductable on HO insurance if the storm is "hurricane".

Our famous govenour has made it illegal supposedly.

The nuances of reading & understanding an insurance policy!!
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/07/12 08:04 PM
Like I said, it must be an New Jersey thing. If it was Florida (law) that was a "named storm" and hurricane rules apply.
Here you actually need wind storm coverage to be covered in a named storm (about 2x the price your regular HO policy with a much higher deductible). You also need flood but that is federal. That costs about as much as HO here too so the total bill for $180k of building coverage is about $5k a year with a $10k deductible on the wind.

I don't have wind and flood.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/08/12 04:12 PM
As to the named storm thing, someone named the nor'easter of last nite "Athena"??

Heard it was a weather channel thing.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/08/12 05:17 PM
The real answer is going to be in the language of your homeowners policy. That is the contract you signed.

One word of warning about governors strong arming the insurance company. Jeb Bush tried it and all the major carriers simply canceled all of their Florida policies and stopped writing homeowner's here. We all now deal with companies nobody ever heard of that only write Florida insurance.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/09/12 02:51 AM
Yes, I know the homeowners insurance situation. I tried to do a little shopping around to see a better rate. Ha!! As soon as you give your zip code...they all said 'sorry, we do not provide coverage in your locality'.

Concensus is that if you are within 1/4mile of water, don't think about HO insurance shopping.

Flood insurance premiums will be going up next renewal for sure.

The nor'easter turned into a snow event, some areas got 12".
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/09/12 03:05 AM
Hotline, let's not confuse apples with oranges, or the solution with the problem!

Ignore the tempting siren song of "the evil insurance companies ...." They're often the only ones telling you the truth when they decline coverage or charge high rates.

If they won't insure along the water ... that should be a real big clue that they're pretty sure something bad will happen, and soon. That little detail ought to drive prices WAY down- not up.

Flood Insurance is another animal. It's not insurance at all - it's a government welfare program. Like 'crop insurance,' it's a political bone tossed into a situation way to uncertain for even the gamblers of Lloyds' to wager on.

Again ... if you need flood insurance, you probably ought not be building there - at all.

The other 'big lie' is the continuing power problems. That there are problems, I don't doubt. What's being left out of the reporting is the way the storm affected a run-down, unmaintained, out-of-date, outgrown grid. The reasons for the inadequate utility operation lay squarely at the feet of every 'public citizen' advocate, who has spent decades demonizing and undercutting the utilities' attempts to do their jobs. Most utilities are no longer able to invest in 'infrastructure' anymore; they can only fix stuff as it breaks.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/09/12 04:11 AM
There are places that flood every 100 years or so and that is where flood insurance is a reasonable deal for everyone involved. If it is a barrier island, the taxpayer is being screwed and if you are paying a ridiculous price for a place that hasn't flooded in recorded history, simply based on the survey, the customer is being screwed.

I chose to drop it because I am in one of those places and I am prepared financially to pay if I do get wet.

I feel the same way about the wind policy, even more so.
A $10,000 deductible on a CBS house that costs $3k+ a year is not worth doing in my opinion.
Maybe if I get too old to do it and we lose all of our contacts with the necessary subs, I might change my mind.
I do have a 100x50 poly tarp in the shed, in case I do lose my roof but the trusses are strapped and I beefed up the nailing schedule on the decking when I got my new roof.
(actually using deck screws).
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/09/12 04:00 PM
Reno:
FWIW, flood insurance is only 'needed' if you have a loan/mortgage on the property. It's optional for me, and last year, we debated dropping it. It should be interesting to see what the outcome of my claim will be.

As to 'homeowners' insurance, I did not say 'evil' I just stated that anyone that lives in an area as I do, be careful about staying current on the premiums, as it will be tough or impossible to get new coverage.

A lot of us who live along a coastline be it ocean, gulf, bay, whatever know the possible consequences. Heck, New Orleans didn't become a ghost town after Katrina, did it??

I kind of agree with Greg on most of his points, but he is more of a 'gambler' than I.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/09/12 05:50 PM
Part of my thinking is I know a guy who does "chinese drywall" houses. He can redo a house from the FEPA/C to finish for about $20k.(new drywall, carpets, cabinets, trim and paint). With a $10k deductible I am paying $3000 a year for $10,000 worth of insurance.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/09/12 07:02 PM
Greg, you bring up an interesting tangent: screws in place of nails. Mike Holmes (of TV fame) get the credit for this one ...

The nailing schedule and the connectors are based upon NAILS. Not screws, nails. Use screws, as Mike did ... he was not able to drive nails into the engineered lumber he was using ... and you learn that you've violated the 'listing and labeling.'

No matter that everyone 'knows' that screws are better than nails. The code wonks said 'that's not how it was tested,' and began to debate what sort of screw .... while the testing labs piously said 'we don't know.'

Well, thanks to Mike's TV show, with the clear footage of the specified nails failing to penetrate the lumber no matter what the crew tried .... amazingly enough, connector makers found ways to accept the use of certain screws.

Just as amazing, store shelves suddenly had boxes of mini-lay bolts next to the connectors, screws that were suspiciously similar in dimension to nails. Got to love the free market at work.

I note that the FEMA offices are closed today, due to the weather .... I bet the folks at the Post Office are laughing at that!
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/09/12 08:30 PM
Florida has a performance based code. If the engineer puts screws in the detail as an option, with a schedule, screws are legal. There are certainly withdrawal ratings for various screws. Now that they have strip loaded screw guns, we see more screws being used.
Simpson put the screw thing in clips to rest when their engineers signed off on Simpson brand screws ... funny how that works.
Most Simpson connectors also have a rating for a bolted connection. You can tell by looking at the clip. If it is a #10 round hole it is for a nail/Simpson screw. A ~3/8 round hole it is OK with a bolt and hex holes imply 1/4" TapCons.

There is a cut sheet for these clips with all of the engineering details and legal attaching options, similar to the application chart on a box of wirenuts.

The typical truss strap we are using is rated close to 3/4 a ton each. (1450#)
Whatever option you choose, all of the holes that size must be filled.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/10/12 08:02 AM
I heard a disturbing thing on the news here. They said the PoCos were saying they couldn't start working on the downed power lines until they fixed the switching stations.
I assume it is just a news misunderstanding but I would think they could start on the visible damage right away. I assume you guys have a hotline and a web site where anyone can report a downed line.

I can understand they may need power to locate less visible things. (blown fuses etc)
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/10/12 03:46 PM
Greg:
Communications with the POCO where I live (JCP&L) is primitive to say it kindly! The 'call' # most times goes to a recording robo system, and asks for your phone number. After 3 times, I actually gave up. Back to the regular #, entered my phone #, and failed, waited about 45 min & got a person. She found out that my # in their system was off by 1 digit! After that got the stock answer 'by Saturday 11:59PM, unless there is additional damages'.

All that said, the crews from Alabama Power said this Monday at 6PM that they were waiting for the 'office' to OK closing the cut-outs/isolators on our primary for the neighborhood.

I'm running off of a gen! Others are not this fortunate.

The major complaints are NO communications. Tell people some info. Yes, the nor'easter caused additional issues.

There were some comments made by some of the utility workers from other states that the system we have (JCP&L) is antiquated, and poorly maintained.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/10/12 03:49 PM
A quick note. I heard back a few years ago that using screws had to do with shear issues, not pull out.

Something with TECO hangers I think.

Not an argument from me, just what I remember hearing.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/10/12 05:20 PM
Screws in hurricane clips have to be their screws, not just something you get at the hardware store but the same thing is true about the nails. They have to be rated for the clip, not just a bright common.
Posted By: mbhydro Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/10/12 08:29 PM
Greg:

Do the special screws or nails come with the clips i.e. a bag full attached to each clip or do you have to buy them separately?

I am just trying to figure out how somebody like me(who has no idea what a Hurricane Clip looks like), would know the right ones to use if I was to come down from Canada after a storm to help my aunt and uncle in Kissimmee rebuild?

____
MB

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/10/12 10:22 PM
The screws come separately as do the nails.

This is a link into the catalog for hurricane specific clips but if you back up a page to products you can see the other things they have

http://www.strongtie.com/products/categories/hurricane_concrete-masonry.html

This is the only style screw Simpson will sign off on in their connector.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/screws-loadrated.asp

Posted By: sparkyinak Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/11/12 12:14 AM
Along with hurricane ties, it you do not install them properly, and maintain them to the letter and document it, will void any warranty you may think they have with them
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/11/12 05:34 AM
The warranty is written such that you are really only covered if you find a clip that is defective before you install it.
It is also only for 90 days the way I read it.

I suspect you guys will be hearing more about these connectors as insurance companies and building officials sift through the rubble to see what failed.

I would suggest you get your B/Os, trade groups and maybe unions to arrange seminars from the Simpson road show guys. It is entertaining as a general rule, you probably get CEUs and you will learn a whole lot about the product.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/12/12 01:02 AM
Interesting update, stories going around that electric will not ne back 'till Thanksgiving, at the earliest.

Seems the reason today is 'we have to rebuild the infrastructure'??? Another is that there is some mysterious 'underground transformer' somewhere that is shot, and they have to convert to a pole mount!!

Communications are brutal, same response..'it will be on tonite'...sure.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/12/12 01:32 AM
I know it is hard to endure but you are all better off if they actually do fix up the base plant and not just "put a penny in the fuse box".
I always fear that if they just do what they have to do to get the lights on, they may not go back and make it right.
Then you are setting yourself up for all of this again next time.

I have been talking to people I know all over up there and my first thought is you have to part with some trees or bury the utilities. I know when I was in Md before the 4th looking at the no name storm that ripped the area, it was pretty much all downed trees.
FPL is right up on the edge of rude how they decide a tree is too close to a primary and cut it DOWN. Nothing can encroach on that 10' ROW if it is more than about 8' high
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/12/12 05:53 PM
Just an FYI, todays & last nites reasoning for no power is...homes require inspections.

That said, I totally understand that, but...why is it almost 2 weeks gone when JCP&L decided this was necessary?

THe out of state POCO guys have been thru my neighborhood at least 3 times, now JCP&L wants DCA (State &/or Twp) inspections. Why dis they not mention this last week?

As to rebuilding the POCO infrastructure that has been neglected for a long time, do it! I'm not crying, I'm frustrated. Tell me it will be out 'till Christas, or Nov 30th. Not the 'will be on by tonite' stock answer.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/12/12 08:52 PM
What is the scope of these proposed inspections?
Are they just looking for water damaged equipment or is this an Easter egg hunt looking for any kind of violations?
If it is the latter, expect to be in court.
We have seen 4th amendment cases about people who deny access to an inspector.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/12/12 09:18 PM
Greg:
Supposedly, the electrical meter & panel. I have not seen or heard anything yet, only our mayor on a local talk radio station.

Like I said, comm is worse than atrocius (spelling)

I'm fielding calls from my work Twp while cleaning up my home.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/12/12 09:46 PM
I think one of the best indicators will be AFCI/GFCIs. If they are not holding, the circuit is still wet or compromised.

I am not sure how you best strike a balance between safety and customer satisfaction. I suppose looking at the high water mark in the house would be a starting place.
The drywall should be a good indication of that.
I have not heard of any mandatory inspection plan here from the government but insurance companies will do it if there is a big enough claim.
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/20/12 04:00 AM
I'm glad to see the ECN family past and present made it through ok! The salt water getting into terminations and low height devices is going to be the major headache.. Time to bust out the meggers..
Posted By: harold endean Re: Hurricane Sandy - 11/24/12 05:14 PM
Guys,

I am back. I was without power for a 6 days and no internet for 12 days. We got our internet/cable back for a day, then a Verizon guy cut the lines. So we were without cable/net for another two days. All we could do is watch old DVD's of or read books. My one office was without power and internet/tel for almost a week. The Tue. after the storm The whole town was without power. Same for the next 2-3 towns. The transmission lines that ran through the woods were knocked out. The POCO ( JCP&L) had to walk through the woods and drag poles in order to replace the broken ones. You would go the the local shopping mall and see 30-50 POCO and tree trimming trucks there. It was a welcome sight to see those boys. Since the last storm Irene came and went and you didn't see POCO boys around at all. They also have a shop here in our town but they were all deployed down to the shore. ( It was Memorial Day weekend last year)
© ECN Electrical Forums