Has anyone heard of Square D making/selling an alternative cover large enough to cover openings in the drywall around a newly installed load center? I have six new panels to install in which the dimensions are different from old to new I didn't really want to hire a drywaller to close them up.

Thanks for any advice,

in some cases you must restore the drywall tight to the enclosure but I would think only in fire separations.
Write a standard we make holes and clean up the mess but we don't patch or fix them clause in your standard agreement then pressure the general or customer to pay for the drywaller. We are electrical experts not drywall experts. leave painting, patching and finishing to the experts in those fields. Now if they would just stay out of our work.

I don't have a code book handy however all enclosures and boxes allow gaps no bigger than 1/8". This is due to if something arcs in the box, you don't want sparks rolling down in the wall and igniting the studs inside.

Even with an oversize cover, the gap would be exposed to the flying sparks. Even if you had an oversize cover, you still want to close in the gap by appropriate means.

Cuttler Hammer has an 'optional' goof ring for some of their panels. It covers about 1-1/2 to 2" past the backbox edges, and the stock panel cover attaches to that.

It was used in panel swaps in a townhouse developement, mostly for 'decorative' reasons, as the walls were required to be patched for fire rating.

I do not know if the UL listing allows leaving a gap or not.

From my personal view as an inspector, they were a royal PITA, as the first bunch were not installed with all four screws, only one for the ring, and three from the panel cover. (That was corrected quick)

IMHO, the suggestion from Mikesh may be the best bet, unless you have some patching skill. As I used to tell people, we are electricians, not spacklers!

From a customers' point of view, I am not happy with Mikesh's suggestion to dump it all back in the customers' lap.

As I see it, you were hired for a complete job ... and the job's not complete until the paint is dry. If that means you need to find a contractor to follow after you, so be it.

At a minimum, these issues need to be addressed in advance. If the customer says he'll take care of it, fine.

Maybe this is the real reason so many prefer 'commercial' work; there's a maintenance guy handy to tie up these loose ends.

Reno:

As an EC, the forewarning that any penetrations that were required for the electrical installation would require 'finish' restoration "by others", detailed to include surface finish, painting and landscape restoration.

I used the disclaimer the few times that I was doing any resi without a GC. My men were not painters, plasterers, or landscapers.

In the odd event that someone would insist on 'restore to as-was'; I would hire a sub that did that trade.

I do know a couple of EC that are also good drywallers and painters but they are exceptions. I have seen more that make a good electrical job look like a hack did the finishing so the electrical work is immediately suspect. From the perspective of the general public they will judge you work more on the quality of your patching than if everyting works and code is met or exceeded. A little gap beside a switch that the cover does not hide is a sign of a poor electrical installation. I suspect a really good drywall patcher who does lousy wiring would get more repeat customers and referals than the best electrician that can't patch.
Like I always say get the guy who is the pro to do the job they are expert at. I can change a washer in a faucet but I call the plumber to run the drains lines and water lines even though I know how to do a lot of their work I will not do it as expertly and I hate it when the real expert comes after me to tell me how a pro would have done it. Plus I hate it when they fix their own cords or wire in baseboard heaters or use an old extension cord to feed that new plug or............

A common theme in the business section is: why doesn't my phone ring?

Well ... maybe all this "I only do ..." waffling is scaring customers off of projects. Things never get done, because of the barriers put in place.

In my experience, darn few jobs have representatives of every trade on site. Somebody has to put all the pieces together. You want to stop cussing at the GC ... well, then you better find a way to get the job done.

I reflect on my (so far) unsuccessful quest to get central air installed in my home. Sure, there are A/C guys out there ... but none of them pour slabs, make security cages, or wants to enter a crawl space. Nope, I have to find the various contractors and put the deal together myself.

I submit that the EC is in a better position to line up these subs than the typical homeowner.

Reno:

"I submit that the EC is in a better position to line up these subs than the typical homeowner."

That is exactly where I was heading with this. There are a few ECs here that provide 'full service' when it is necessary.

There also is one who is Elec, Plumb, Heating & AC who does 'it' all, and is very successful at it.

I think there should be more cooperation between the trades. They always seem to have an adversarial relationship.
It also seems to be true between inspectors and contractors in some places.
I think it is helpful around here that there is not enough critical mass to have "inspector only" organizations so we do get a little cross pollination there with groups who cater to both but I still don't see many groups where dry wallers, painters and the trades who need them to clean up the mess get together.
I suppose the GC would say that is his job

Reno:

Which path is this conversation taking? Are we talking about an EC that goes to do an install as a 'single trade job', where the EC is the only trade doing any work?

Or, are we talking about a comm, or resi alteration where there may be other trades doing work?

Look at it closely, those trades are interlinked, to use installing a packaged heating/cooling unit on the roof, in addition to setting the unit, it needs plumbing for the gas supply, & power to run it, keeping it inhouse is better then subbing it out.

Norcal:

Yes those are interlinked trades, as opposed to an EC that paints, plasters, etc.

I threw that line in for Reno, as it seems he can't find a HVAC guy that will do his complete job! (Minus the electrical, I assume)

I think the farther you get away from the monoculture enforced by unions, the better chance a trade can do other things. We do have HVAC contractors here with EC licenses. Whether they have a guy who can do drywall is going to be a crap shoot but a lot of people bounced around the business before they got the job they have now.
I do notice these "jack of all trades" guys are not as good as a guy who does it every day tho. I have an example in my new room. Fortunately we were painting an underwater mural on that wall because it was already "wavy".

What direction?

OK, I admit to having hijacked the thread a bit, but I don't apologize.

Nor do I want to dwell too much on my personal quests, save that being on the 'customer' side of the table has opened my eyes.

Commercial or residential? Well, let's back up a bit first ....

There are uncounted times in our business forum where someone says "My bid / contract says repairs by others." Sometimes it seems to be a contest to pass off everything to someone else. We don't want to move furniture, prep, clean up, patch, repair .... If we're the data guys, we even want someone else to run the pipe!

IMO, that's the wrong approach.

The customer wants a completed job. COMPLETE. He wants a light hung, he shouldn't have to get his own ladder to put in the bulbs.

I'm not saying every individual electrician needs to be a framer, painter, rocker, etc. I agree that different folks have different talents. I also recognize that any trade requires a significant investment in tools and materials, and no one can buy or carry everytjing.

I AM saying that every contractor needs to be able to get the entire job done, from start to finish. As a customer, I care not whether the hole is patched by Joe's Electric or Sam's Drywall; I DO expect the job to be done when Joe gives me the bill. Joe needs to learn to patch, hire someone who can patch, or call in Sam.

I admit that customer will often - especially in the case of commercial properties, where they have a maintenance staff on hand - be willing to assume these duties. Especially if it reduces the bill.

I also recognize that 'new construction' is a different set of circumstances.

I just think it's an error to expect every customer to carry our water for us. It might be nice to have a co-operative customer, but I wouldn't base a business model on it.

Another of my 'customer' experiences comes to mind: The window contractors.
None were able / willing to actually INSTALL a new window. All were able to slip a replacement into an existing, finished hole. Nice work if you can get it.
Of the two companies I used, only one took away the trash. The other guy piled it at the curb for the trash man to collect.
The guy who carried off the trash had a 'disposal fee' in his bid, yet his total price was considerably less.

Anyone care to guess which one will get my business for the other half of the house?

OK, that's a trick question. Whoever makes the openings for the new windows will have a real good shot at supplying the windows.

John...

Cutting in a rough opening is W A A Y beyond the skill and tool set of the aftermarket window crowd. Period, stop.

It's also a TRIVIAL fraction of that trade.

=======

The ultimate bottom line: dry wall repair is VERY skill intensive -- not so much tool intensive.

For most of us -- we just can't do it. We are also not subbing enough work to get any price breaks -- and can't control scheduling: his.

Further, we quickly find that we're financing the rock repair. We must pay 100% of the time -- collection, at retail, is a b...

===

My solution is to rarely damage the walls. It slows me down.

Renosteinke.
We are "ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS" contract electrical work and not framing, not plumbing, not drywall repairs. We work for years to gain the skills to be electricians and not the skill to drywall. I get the point about finishing the job but that is what the General Contractor is for if the job is multi trade.

I am not wasting the customers valuable dollars doing work that i will leave looking like an electrician did the drywall and charging out at electrical rates. Heck I'd probably take twice as long to deliver 1/2 the quality. It just does not make sense to expect us to also be competent generalists and how do you charge for patching? I suppose that you could have a drywaller as a regular sub contractor to do hte patching and leave an allowance in your bid. I could see that customers might appreciate the service but It is absurd to hire a service guy for his drywalling skills when what we do is install the light with the bulbs installed too.
Now there are 1 stop contractors and we often complain about their general lack of ability at any 1 aspect. The do it all and often poorly.
Drywalling is a skill and it takes practice plus another complete set of tools and equipment. Where is the space for the sheet of drywall on the truck, plus the mud, plus the bead, plus the tools and all the time to get good at it. I suspect that if you don't do a professional drywall finish the customer will of course assume the electrical is crap too. So now you have a bad reputation for an aspect of the job you only started doing as a service. I kind of go by ht ehow you do anything is how you do everything mindset so if you are going to also finish the work it better be as good or even better than your wiring. At least if I send in a drywaller or the customer does I don't get blamed for the shoddy electrical work based on his work.
Customers will tell their neighbours the electrical contractor is crap based on the drywall job even though all the electrical works fine.

just stick to what you are good at and for what you are hired for and be sure to clean up.

While I don't fix the holes I also don't leave the mess from making the holes or make messy holes either. IE don't use a hammer to create an opening in the wall. Know what your drywaller can fix too so you make repairable holes.

Mikesh, you completly missed the point.

As a contractor, you ought to have no trouble bringing in one of your fellow contractors, on a moments' notice, to do what you need. You simply include the cost in your price to the customer.

That's why our license allows us to be 'prime' contractors. We're allowed to act like a 'general contractor' for jobs that are primarily electrical.

Reno:
IF you were here in NJ, and you performed ANY work other than electrical, you would be required to have a Home Improvement Contractors License (Resi).

That means, go & do electrical & carpentry, etc. you must have that License. (aka "13VHO")

If it's comm (other than resi) most towns have a "Contractors License" required by local ordinance.

I wondered about that too.
Florida does have some exemptions for coincidental remedial work but if there is any extensive amount of work involving other licensed contractors you might be tiptoeing around the CG license category.
I don't think simply patching up around damage you cause in the scope of your electrical work would put you in violation but you also need to hire licensed people, not just a "cash" handyman with no license, tax ID or insurance. You really don't want to be in the "hiring" business these days if you can avoid it. (I-9s, E-verify, 1099s etc)
If the homeowner wants to do that, it is his call. He doesn't have a license at stake and he can exploit the $500 casual labor thing for reporting.

Greg:
IMHO, no one would raise an eyebrow for a patch job, or anything directly related to the electrical work. The purpose of the '13V' was & is to eliminate the trunk slammers.

The contractor I mentioned with the interlinked trades has, EC, Master Plumber, & '13V' that covers him for all, plus he could also do home improvement type work.

I get that. I disagree, that I want to include patching and painting in Quotes. It would take a lot of my and my drywall friend and painter friend to coordianate these services. Not time that generates profit for me only a time liability and coordination headache. I don't want to be a general contractor and frankly it is something way outside the skill of most electricians. Heck i am sure you already know that being a good electrical contractor does not make you a good business person or even a good general contractor.

General contractors do this as a regular part of their work. To coordinate sub trades and to prepare a general scope and schedule. Even for little tiny jobs It becomes even more troublesome to get allowance prices for work I cannot limit the scope of. On 1 job the $200 allowance is gravy and on the next job of the same scope i had to do something much more expensive to fix? It is well outside my skills and competences. Yes I am sure the little customers will be thrilled to get pros for patching and the service is value added but I just would not go there. I have seen more problems over this single aspect of the trade. I do know electricians that are good drywallers and painters so for them it could be a great feature but the customer does not take this into account very often so the guy who does not patch and make good gets the job anyway because his price was lower, nevermind that his specification was too.
I make good holes and as few as possible but i never know how many I might make or the size of them and I cannot color match paint to save a life. I can get an electrical permit in 24 hours or less but building permits can take weeks and some of these jobs require building permits for the patching (very rare).
I stick to what I can control and what i can do at a trademan level. I cannot control the patch it guys schedule, work ethic, skill, customer relations, attitude except via the care I take at chosing a guy.
So I get your point but i think it carries too many pitfalls to persue it.

I love all the dancing and distractions that are getting tossed around d. Tiptoeing in GC territory indeed! Next you'll be walking away from an open trench, and telling the homeowner he needs to find a licensed gardener to replace the bits of turf you disturbed!

I'd be surprised to learn that NJ doesn't share the 'prime contractor' concept, that allows you to do whatever you need to do your job.

There's the key .... to do YOUR job. We're not talking about rocking a new house; we're talking about fixing a hole we made.

Even so, what's wrong with YOU bringing in the licensed guy to make the patch? Who's in a better position to get the guy out on short notice for a small job .... you (who can provide a steady stream of small jobs) or the homeowner (who will likely never call again)? Who's in a better position to know which contractors are reliable which are the skunks?

Just as important, would you not also welcome the other guys steering customers your way?

We sure seem to work awful hard to say 'no' .... then come here to complain about the evil GC, and how trunk slammers are stealing our business. Of course they are. GC's and trunk slammers both say 'yes' a lot.

I recall when my folks had their (finished) basement flood. Their insurance company gave them the number for some ServiceSuper company. The first guy came out, laid out a restoration plan, and then the parade began. First one contractor after another came, did his part of the job, and left. A quick, seamless effort- at least from my parent's point of view.

Yet, this forum also has plenty of contractor complaints about the "Service" companies. We need to see how they look from the customers' side.

Reno:

"I'd be surprised to learn that NJ doesn't share the 'prime contractor' concept, that allows you to do whatever you need to do your job."

I thought I made it clear, in a simple minimal number of words, but here are a few more examples.

As I said above, patching 'holes' would not raise an eyebrow, but rocking a room would. Pouring a slab for a generator, a 13VHO lic is required (slab is Building); installing a precast/composite 'pad' for a gen is no issue. An EC installing a furnace needs a 13VHO lic.

Yes, it can be a PITA, but that's how it is. I'll hunt up a link at the DCA website for all the 'rules' if anyone cares.

Reno:

Yes, I agree that in some instances an EC may have a relationship with a painter/patch guy, and they may refer work to each other.

The problem of scheduling, that's another issue!

With my EC hat on, and for the limited amount of resi I did, I took extra time to explain what the electrical work entailed. Where it was necessary to make 'holes', about how many, and the fact that my employees are electricians, not magicians, or plasterers. IF the 'holes' were notches, we would 'ROUGH' patch, not finish, and we don't paint. Everyone was OK with that, as most resi was getting painted anyway.

As to scheduling, the very few times I tried to get my nephew (painter contractor) to look at 'work', he was busy, or 'really busy' (back in the good days) That was the end of that!!

As Mikesh said, 'good holes', and only necessary holes!!

Interesting how a new member can ask something that he may have thought was 'minor', and three pages later, the thread is still jacked!

Reno
You have described a niche that some EC do work and take advantage of but you also describe a small niche that will stay small. Yes the customers will appreciate the service and probably spread the good word too but I just don't see it as profitable. If return customers are profit then maybe a great service for an EC. Since I deal with a lot of EC I can tell you I only know 1 or 2 that patch to a finished quality but they also are very good at hiding the holes and are wizards at fire blocking and crazy framing. They almost are trapped in residential work where a lot of effort goes into thin profit.
For the most part I have not worked residential and in the 30 some years in the business I doubt I have done much more than 2 or 3 months total work in residential occupancies. I went to commercial, institutional, and industrial where the money and customers are a lot better. No customer is perfect.

Maybe ..... price it both ways? Let the customer choose?

I mean, imagine the scene ... Mrs. Jones wants a ceiling fan hung. You quote her $500 "and I'll fix everything I touch". Your buddy in the other shop quotes her $400 'but customer gets to patch.' Who do you think will get the job?
(Honest question, no implied 'right' answer)

Suppose you gave her both prices. You think she might change here mind while you're working? Sounds like an easy up-sell.

Flip side is, you get the high sale and don't make a mess, it's pure profit.

Just some thinking.

Reno
The guy who patches probably gets the job but if the patch is less than perfect now he is also a crappy electrician and never gets called back.

If the house belongs to a DIY maybe the non patcher gets the job because it is cheaper and never gets blamed for poor drywall and p[ainting experience.

"never gets called back"

That's the problem the homeowner faces .... even if you do a perfect job, you're never getting called back. They're one-off jobs.

I bet we'd try harder for regular customers.

So I need to improve my drywall and painting skills but I don't actually make any money from it but I might establish a good reputation. Not a lot of motivation there.

As you mention, residential customers don't repeat. So where is the benefit for all the trouble? Like I said all my 33 years I have worked outside of residential as there is just no money and a lot of agro for residential work.

A clean shirt and a good clean up after I am done has satisfied most customers without also learning another trade that might pay back a little? So explain to me again why this is such a good idea?
OK so to a point I have been playing the devils advocate but I still stick to this> I am or at least was a good electrician but at best I am a fair dry waller. So my fair drywall skills might actually have labelled me a bad electrician because the customer judges my work on the finished drywall instead of the all hidden wires square cut outlet box clean floor, replaced insulation and the general look that no one was there working except that lousy drywall patch?
This might work for a few but I still prefer to stick to what I do well and patching ain't it.

After all is said & done, for the majority of us, we are electricians!!

I once did a big job and when we put the plates on with the screws straight up and down on each plate. We got in trouble years ago because our plates was put on crooked. So I use to make the men put on plates with a level. When we would go back and see the screws in all different directions, U knew the painters took my plates off and didn't put them back on straight. I also got in trouble once because the HO yelled at me for putting up light fixtures not level. I tried to explain to him that it also was the painters, but he wouldn't let me come back to the job to see for myself.