ECN Forum
Posted By: Trumpy Four Way Switch? - 01/05/03 04:20 AM
Could someone please explain to me,
from New Zealand, what a 4 Way switch is?.
We have over here the standard 1 way switch,
the 2way switch and the 2way+Intermediate.
What is this? [Linked Image]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/05/03 04:32 AM
Trumpy,

A 4 way has 4 terminals and goes between 2 3 ways to add another switching location:

[Linked Image]

Look Here for More: https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000068.html

Bill
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/05/03 05:04 AM
Bill,
Thanks for your very prompt reply, all of about 10 minutes, are you staying up late?.
The diagram, that you have tendered, to me, is the same as a 2-way+Intermediate circuit,
the Intermediate, being in the middle of the
circuit.
But Bill, would the circuit be run like this in practice?.
Over here, we have a different way of running the whole circuit, all of the feed, switch and "strap" wires, terminate in the same flushbox,this is called the "Start"end of the circuit
All you have between the Intermediate and the "End" flushbox, is the same as what you have at the "Start" flushbox.
With respect to these types of lighting circuits, is there a standard colour-code for the "straps"?.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/05/03 07:12 AM
Trumpy,

No, it would not really run like this. Maybe someone else can point to a diagram that is more representative of how the wiring would run. The Neutral would run with the travelers from switch to switch and then to the load. Maybe we can get Scott to fix these diagrams so that they show that.

Bill
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/05/03 09:45 AM
Bill,

I'll see what can be done this weekend. (regarding actual cabling scenarios).

Scott s.e.t.

P.S. might inbed on schematics something that kind of copywrites it to ECN (per the thread about "Mr Eelctrician").
Posted By: pauluk Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/05/03 12:33 PM
Trumpy,
This is where most Brits would start getting confused with American terminology.

In the U.K. a 4-way switch is also known as an "intermediate" switch, and an American 3-way switch is called a 2-way. Oz and NZ obviously followed British terminology!

Compare with:
UK ground floor = US first floor
UK first floor = US second floor
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/06/03 04:24 AM
Oh how true Paul,
strange, but true. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/09/03 01:58 AM
FYI:

I have added circuit referenced drawings to the drawings located in the Technical Reference section, under the topic of:

3-way and 4-way Switchloop Schematics

Let me know what you think!!!

P.S. I need to alter the size of them (Way TOOOO BIGGGGG!!!). I will do this ASAP.

Scott s.e.t.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/09/03 02:46 AM
Pauluk,

Gee, that's funny, I thought Americans called the 3 way switch because it came from England. I read some where that over there the switch was originaly called a "3 point" switch. That being because it had 3 screw terminals. And the 4-way switch was a "4 point" switch because it had 4 terminals. When I tell people over here that a "3 way" switch operates lights from 2 different spots, and a "4 way" switch operates from 3 or more spots, they look at me like I was nuts. I believe I read this article in an American trade magazine about 2-3 years ago. Ever hear of this?
Posted By: Wirenuttt Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/09/03 02:51 AM
3-ways could also be named as not to confuse with single pole double throw, and 4-way not to confuse with double pole double throw.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/09/03 05:38 AM
Having just looked at Scott's diagrams, the mind boggles as to all of the ways that a lighting circuit can be hooked up, to achieve control where it is required.
And I can think of a few more too. [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/09/03 01:31 PM
Harold,

I've never heard the term "3-point switch" used here, but it may have been in the very early days. All the 1930s text books I have refer to "2-way" switches and nothing else.

In general electronics work we have various styles of multi-way switches (slide, rotary, toggle, etc.) and we follow the same general nomenclature, i.e. a 3-way rotary switch is one which has 3 positions.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/10/03 06:21 AM
Well, I sure hope these switchloop drawings have been helpful and informative for everyone!
As always, feel free to contact me with suggestions, comments and such. Still working on compiling many Schematics that Members have requested (due to lack of data and circuitry resources).

My "To-Do" shelf is now at 50 rows, 5 columns! [Linked Image]

A little trivial stuff regarding 3-way and 4-way switches:

A 3-way switch is simply a Single Pole - Double Throw toggle switch;

A 4-way switch is simply a Double Pole - Double Throw toggle switch, wired on "one side" so the travelers will end up to be "crossed-over";

Seen many different switchloop wiring methods done by others. Residential projects have the most variety in complete switchloop connections / wiring designs;

An older thread covered "California 3-way switchloops", and these designs sure do fall into "Different" connection methods!!!

Wiring design on these switchloops is not difficult to achieve - even as "complex" as they may seem. Just place your 3-ways at the ends of the loop's switch control points, then place as many 4-ways between the end points (1 to 1 million individual 4-way switches between the 3-ways).NEC prohibits >1 million 4-way switches [Linked Image](...joke...).

Bring power in at "the first 3-way", and run through loop to the "last 3-way". From there, run to Luminare(s) which will be controlled.
AC Power can include the Grounded Neutral Conductor running with the switchloop, or simply the Line Ungrounded Conductor run in then out of the loop.

To reduce the created Mag Fields, best to run currents "In Opposite Directions". This would either be by including the Noodle with the switchloop, or by running the switchleg back to the Luminare(s) via same cable / conduit as travelers.

If simple "Pick-Up at end points" methods are used (Line "Hot" only comes to first switch, then switchleg only is run to Luminare from last switch - with Noodle left at light outlet), there is no current flowing in an opposite direction within the switchloop's wiring, so the field's strength is not reduced.

This is in regards to "EMF Related Hazards", and is a very touchy and controversial subject.

Scott s.e.t.

p.s. pay no attention to the following text! Just testing out what extended / alt characters will show up.

!

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Posted By: old Appy Re: Four Way Switch? - 01/10/03 09:46 AM
i would do it like this. if this works. http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~clwheat/craig.gif

[This message has been edited by old Appy (edited 01-10-2003).]
Posted By: Pinemarten Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/24/03 01:31 AM
It won't work. Tie your first feed wire straight through to the 'common' on the last switch. Put the wire to the light on the common of the first switch.

The way I always explained '3-way' switching to apprentices was simple:

-Make sure there is a white neutral at the light.
-The common screw on one switch gets a hot wire, and the common on the other goes to the light.
-The 'travellers' go to each other.

[This message has been edited by Pinemarten (edited 08-23-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Pinemarten (edited 08-23-2003).]
Posted By: classicsat Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/24/03 04:26 AM
I think that will wirk. Seem just like a California 3-way with a 4-way in between.
I agree a conventional 3-way or 4 way is easier.
Posted By: Pinemarten Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/24/03 04:49 AM
Edited because I tried to find a bad switching combo and kept correcting. I know it's there somewhere though.
[This message has been edited by Pinemarten (edited 08-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Pinemarten (edited 08-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Pinemarten (edited 08-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Pinemarten (edited 08-24-2003).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/24/03 09:58 AM
4way wiring in Austria: Run phase from junction box to 3way switch and travelers back up. Horizontal run of commons to junction box above 4way sw. 4 travelers down to 4way. 2 travelers continue to last switch and fixture wire goes up to the lamp. Neutral is usually run to the lamp from the nearest J-box available, through which the fixture wire passes.
Hope it's not too complicated, If I ever find my book again I'll mail a German schematic to Bill.
Posted By: George Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/24/03 06:48 PM
About the time we all understand SPDT and DPDT switches someone will come up with an electronic control what noone knows how it works.
Posted By: jb Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/24/03 07:12 PM
Don't know if it's correct or not, but I always thought that the 3-way's were so named because of their different states when operated. Say for instance that the Common terminal on each 3-way is "A" and the travellers are "B" and "C" then the circuit would have three possible states.

A connected to B on both switches (lights on)
A connected to C on both switches (lights on)
A connected to B on one switch and A connected to C on the other (lights off)

Three states = three way?

If you follow this logic then it could apply to a 4-way switch as well but then that might mean that we would have to start calling regular snap switches a 2-way switch [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by jb (edited 08-24-2003).]
Posted By: Big Jim Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/25/03 04:14 AM
If you really want to WOW out some automotive types, hook up some of the 12 volt lights in a van or motorhome with a 3 way and/or 4 way setup. I've done a couple and people are absolutely amazed that you can do something like that.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/25/03 12:12 PM
Some people here understand switching a light from two locations, but don't realize that you can include extra positions if you wish.

I did a complete rewire on a friend's house a year or two ago, and had his living room lights switched from three locations. He later had somebody in doing the walls, and a sheet of drywall had to be changed, so one of the 3-ways had to be disconnected temporarily. When the wall-guy put it back, he got the connections wrong so that this switch had to be in one position before the lights would work -- In the other position you couldn't turn on the lights from anywhere else.

Despite my friend telling him that the three switches had all worked fine before, this guy insisted that it wasn't possible to switch lights from three places like this and that if you had a third switch it would always have to be "on" before the others would work. [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/25/03 12:12 PM
{Accidental double post -- Bill, please delete.}


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 08-25-2003).]
Posted By: classicsat Re: Four Way Switch? - 08/25/03 03:11 PM
The elctronic controls (AFAIK, required in at least France and Germany for multipoint
lighting), is easier, you have a common, an
on lead, and an off lead. You hook the switches in parallel. The switches will be SPDT spring return center off.
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